Talk:Kalininsko-Solntsevskaya line

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed for all, including late additions (a substantial number of additional support votes coming after these). bd2412 T 18:46, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

• Kalininsko-Solntsevskaya Line → Kalininsko–Solntsevskaya line
• Sokolnicheskaya Line → Sokolnicheskaya line
• Zamoskvoretskaya Line → Zamoskvoretskaya line
• Arbatsko-Pokrovskaya Line → Arbatsko–Pokrovskaya line
• Filyovskaya Line → Filyovskaya line
• Koltsevaya Line → Koltsevaya line
• Kaluzhsko-Rizhskaya Line → Kaluzhsko–Rizhskaya line
• Tagansko-Krasnopresnenskaya Line → Tagansko–Krasnopresnenskaya line
• Serpukhovsko-Timiryazevskaya Line → Serpukhovsko–Timiryazevskaya line
• Lyublinsko-Dmitrovskaya Line → Lyublinsko–Dmitrovskaya line
• Kakhovskaya Line → Kakhovskaya line
• Butovskaya Line → Butovskaya line
• Tsentralno–Zavodska Line → Tsentralno–Zavodska line
• Kholodnohirsko–Zavodska Line → Kholodnohirsko–Zavodska line
• Saltivska Line → Saltivska line
• Oleksiivska Line → Oleksiivska line
• Sviatoshynsko-Brovarska Line → Sviatoshynsko–Brovarska line
• Kurenivsko-Chervonoarmiyska Line → Kurenivsko–Chervonoarmiyska line
• Syretsko-Pecherska Line → Syretsko–Pecherska line
• Podilsko-Vyhurivska Line → Podilsko–Vyhurivska line
• Livoberezhna Line → Livoberezhna line
• Vyshhorodsko-Darnytska Line → Vyshhorodsko–Darnytska line
• Maskoŭskaja Line → Maskoŭskaja line
• Aŭtazavodskaja Line → Aŭtazavodskaja line
• Kozhukhovskaya Line → Kozhukhovskaya line

– These are names of metro lines in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus (Moscow, Kiev, Kharkiv, Dnipro, Minsk), transliterated from Cyrillic. Move to lowercase Line per usual WP style, since sources do not support treating these as proper names (same as rail and metro lines in most countries). And dash, not hyphen, between place names. See ongoing RFC at WP:VPPOL#RfC: Russian railway line article titles. Dicklyon (talk) 03:18, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

• As nom of course I support this, and commit to doing all the post-move cleanup so that the names visible in articles will be consistent. We've had a ton of discussions on such styling through various European and Asian countries over the last year and more, which all found a consensus to follow the advice of WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS (I admit that's been somewhat less successful in the US so far, esp. in the NYC subway system, where indefensible line over-capitalization still abounds; patience). Note that the Cyrillic provides no clue as to whether "line" should be considered part of a proper name or not, since they would do it lowercase either way (if Russian rules as I understand them apply also in Ukraine and Belarus). So we go with the usual interpretation that these are descriptions of lines based on one place or two places that the lines connect (not necessarily the end places, since lines can grow without being renamed). That's also the justification for the en dash, the mark used between place names in a symmetric relation in our style, per MOS:DASH. In WP style, a hyphen in this context makes no sense (though other styles may use a hyphen as the orthographic representation for the function of a dash, our MOS is explicit that we don't, not in titles, not no how. Please Support moving toward consistency with our MOS. Dicklyon (talk) 04:00, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support We should work to be more consistent with the MOS where we can. While there will be some effort involved in making the transition, it’s entirely doable. Many of the articles that were posted over from Russian do not have consistent formatting and over time, editors have shied away from handling larger projects like this. I’ll assist with the transition in any way that I can. TastyPoutine ^{talk (if you dare)} 04:18, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support—per Poutine and nom. Sensible moves. Tony (talk) 12:41, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NCCAPS, MOS:CAPS, MOS:PN, MOS:DASH, and for WP:CONSISTENCY with piles of previous RMs about "line" and "station" in article (mindful of rare proper-name exceptions, like Grand Central Station (Chicago)). All of this is routine cleanup of misuse of hyphens and (in English descriptive titles that are not Russian proper names) of over-capitalization. The only "controversy" about this was manufactured by a socking and disruptive anon. I would say "wait for the RfC to close", but it's a WP:SNOWBALL; the only responses other than the anon's WP:BLUDGEON text-walling are either to do exactly what this RM says, or to "follow the sources", which will result in doing exactly what this RM says.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  07:01, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
• Comment: This would also affect the template {{Kalininsko-Solntsevskaya Line RDT}} by moving it to {{Kalininsko–Solntsevskaya line RDT}}; there may be others. This was among the original RM/TR moves that triggered this RM, but isn't listed in the moves above. (If it becomes listed, feel free to remove this entire comment.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  07:01, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I’ll add the following per SMcCandlish.

• Template:Arbatsko-Pokrovskaya Line RDT → Template:Arbatsko–Pokrovskaya line RDT
• Template:Butovskaya Line RDT → Template:Butovskaya line RDT
• Template:Filyovskaya Line RDT → Template:Filyovskaya line RDT
• Template:Kakhovskaya Line RDT → Template:Kakhovskaya line RDT
• Template:Kalininsko-Solntsevskaya Line RDT → Template:Kalininsko–Solntsevskaya line RDT
• Template:Kaluzhsko-Rizhskaya Line RDT → Template:Kaluzhsko–Rizhskaya line RDT
• Template:Koltsevaya Line RDT → Template:Koltsevaya line RDT
• Template:Kozhukhovskaya Line RDT → Template:Kozhukhovskaya line RDT
• Template:Lyublinsko-Dmitrovskaya Line RDT → Template:Lyublinsko–Dmitrovskaya line RDT
• Template:Serpukhovsko-Timiryazevskaya Line RDT → Template:Serpukhovsko–Timiryazevskaya line RDT
• Template:Sokolnicheskaya Line RDT → Template:Sokolnicheskaya line RDT
• Template:Tagansko-Krasnopresnenskaya Line RDT → Template:Tagansko–Krasnopresnenskaya line RDT
• Template:Zamoskvoretskaya Line RDT → Template:Zamoskvoretskaya line RDT
• Template:Maskoŭskaja Line → Template:Maskoŭskaja line
• Template:Aŭtazavodskaja Line → Template:Aŭtazavodskaja line
• Template:Sviatoshynsko-Brovarska Line → Template:Sviatoshynsko–Brovarska line
• Template:Syretsko-Pecherska Line → Template:Syretsko–Pecherska line
• Template:Kurenivsko-Chervonoarmiyska Line → Template:Kurenivsko–Chervonoarmiyska line
• Template:Livoberezhna Line → Template:Livoberezhna line
• Template:Podilsko-Vyhurivska Line → Template:Podilsko–Vyhurivska line

Also, one line was missed in the initial nom, so adding that as well hopefully without objection.

• Kozhukhovskaya Line → Kozhukhovskaya line

TastyPoutine ^{talk (if you dare)} 10:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I had not noticed the "under construction" section at Template:Moscow Metro Lines.

I was thinking of the titles in these templates as part of uncontroversial "cleanup". Template names are not exposed to users, so have no particular need to conform to our style, but I would usually go ahead and do that as uncontroversial after the main articles are moved. So, let's keep them here but not add them to the official RM proposal. I'll add the missing line. Dicklyon (talk) 16:29, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support en-dash (with redirects created from hyphens where these don't currently exist), I haven't investigated how sources capitalise "line" but they should be capitalised unless sources consistently use lower case. Thryduulf (talk) 03:02, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

  User:Thryduulf: User:Dicklyon claimed something that is not true. "since sources do not support treating these as proper names" is an incorrect statement.

  "capitalised unless sources consistently use lower case" is not a sensible interpretation of our usual style, per MOS:CAPS, nor consistent with how we do this in most other countries. Dicklyon (talk) 03:49, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose User:Dicklyon claimed something that is not true. "since sources do not support treating these as proper names" is an incorrect statement. See

• Sokolnicheskaya Line: https://www.mos.ru/en/news/item/22030073/, https://www.mos.ru/en/news/item/26759073/
• Ulitsa Novatorov-Stolbovo Line: https://www.mos.ru/en/news/item/26801073/
• Kakhovskaya and Circle Lines: http://tass.com/russia/764629
• https://www.rbth.com/articles/2011/09/27/a_ride_across_passages_of_history_-_moscow_metro_rolls_on_13490.html : Circle Line, Filevskaya Line, Sokolnicheskaya Line, Arbatsko-Pokrovskaya Line

92.227.45.181 (talk) 03:07, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

92.227.45.181 has said something that is not true, which is that what I said is not true. To determine what's true here, you need to understand what it means for sources to support interpretation as a proper name. See MOS:CAPS, which says "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources", which these are not. Travel guides such as Rough Guide to Moscow use lowercase line, as do various other sources. Dicklyon (talk) 03:45, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Following up on his examples, take a look at better sources (books, news):

• Sokolnicheskaya Line – books, news; mostly lowercase "line".
• Ulitsa Novatorov-Stolbovo Line – just one source, capped
• Kakhovskaya Line – books; mostly lowercase "line".
• Circle Line – books, news; mostly lowercase "line".
• Filevskaya Line – books, news; mostly lowercase "line".
• Arbatsko-Pokrovskaya Line – books, news; mostly lowercase "line" (more caps in news though).

Dicklyon (talk) 04:10, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

• The IP is globally banned editor Tobias Conradi. I have struck through his !vote. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 13:10, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support – Sounds like a good move forward. (I was canvassed by an IP editor.) —Michael Z. 2017-12-14 18:34 z
• Support – Consistent and policy-compliant. — JFG ^talk 11:36, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.