Talk:500 Years Later
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African diaspora High‑importance | |||||||
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Discrimination Mid‑importance | |||||||
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Human rights Mid‑importance | |||||||
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International relations: United Nations Mid‑importance | ||||||||||
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Film: British / Documentary / American | |||||||||||||
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AfroCreatives | ||||||||||||
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This article reads like an advertisement. In fact, a lot of the text seems to be lifted straight from the press kit, see for example this google search and [1] and [2] (that latter page mentions 'summary written by Halaqah Media'). Examples of problematic phrases:
It might be best to rewrite this from scratch, though some statistics and verifiable statements could stand. — mark ✎ 10:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
okay mark you should rewrite the problem text---Halaqah 12:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)Okay since no one would clean up this article i have done it, i have deleted the "promotional" copy and paste parts of it which come from the press kit.--Halaqah 20:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have cleaned the article up further, bias claims and wording used and either dead or worthless pages used for references.'The producers complained about the racism involved in screening African-centred content and many in the African-British community saw this as part of the racism in the United Kingdom.' has no actual reference so should not be linked, if it is implying the film was not distributed due to racism then it should really be linked and not just flagged as 'link dead' Again this is implied in the quote attributed to California Newsreel however no link to support it. The references regarding "internationally recognised as the hallmark film..." are an Afrocentric blog reviewing the film and a NY Times reader review section with only 3 reviews all from the same user. This is not sufficient to support the claim of international recognition as THE hallmark film on the legacy of slavery. I have tried to make the article more balanced too as all information i can find on the ZIFF 2007 states it won a special award not best documentary. The award appears to have been given by ZIFF rather than UNESCO so it seems odd to repeatedly refer to it as a UNESCO award. In fact despite searching the only pages I can find referring to it as a UNESCO award are pages related to the documentary itself and the ZIFF website so it would appear to be more a ZIFF award than UNESCO. This may seem like nitpicking but if the article is biased in a way to promote the film then it is relevant. Stevowills1 (talk) 22:32, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the condescending tone but wikipedia is open to anyone to edit, i may have got some of the technical side wrong but please do not try to imply this makes my contributions to the actual article any less worthy. I may not have done to your liking and personal opinion on the subject which is clear to see but the article still reads like an advert. One of the pages you link to support some of the quotes are to a website called africanholocaust which is selling the dvd, is this a reliable source?! Once again the apparent link to support the California Newsreel quote is missing, as is the quote you attribute to Danny Cohen. Please fix the links again or I will delete again, I have said why i have done so, if the article is showing clear bias in favour of the content of the film without sufficient references it cannot be allowed to be part of an entry in an encyclopedia. Again if the film is an apparent hallmark of the slavery genre can't you find a reference for this? i have searched, you have presumably searched too, it does not exist so i am deleting that part. If you can fix those links again that would be great but i am surprised they have failed again after a matter of hours. If that is the case they are unreliable. The final paragraph allows you to understand the politics of the editor who wrote the section (clearly supporting the films content and the opinion that institutions such as channel 4 are racist), i thought this was one of your main concerns regarding a good balanced article? Also the blink page and Ken Livingstone quote are in relation to an incident on one reality tv show, nothing to do with Danny Cohen and is one mans opinion that the channel is racist because of one tv show! Where does it show the emails you say are clearly shown?? I have followed your "FIXED" links but again they are misleading(not supporting the quotes or claims made in the article), or broken. You clearly have an agenda to promote the film and its content but this is not the appropriate place for that. Feel free to promote the film elsewhere. Also it is correct the film makers are primary sources but not correct on a wiki article to use them to back up positive claims regarding the film, surely that is conflict of interest? And deleting dishonest content from an article is actually a constructive activity, quality of content is more important than quantity Inayity Can you really say this is a good balanced article the way it is? Would you not agree to remove disputable content is in the best interests of a wikipedia article? Stevowills1 (talk) 13:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have actually deleted the final part relating to the allegations that Channel 4 is seen as a racist institution, the blink page was a single story where Ken Livingstone accused Channel 4 of racism due to the tv show Big Brother. The condemnation was for the show, not about Channel 4 being racist or uk tv being racist. On top of this the you claim it showed the uks racism towards Africans when the entire affair revoled around the treatment of Shilpa Shetty, and Indian woman. How does that relate to Uk-African racism specifically? The link seems to me to be deliberately misleading as it does NOT support what it is supposed to be supporting.I can find multiple clams by people of the film being rejected, for example the Ritzy cinema in London apparently rejected at least 10 approaches to show the film, if there is evidence to show this as fact it would be interesting and of course worth inclusion as part of the discussion on racism, but if it is just claims being made without evidence then it is worthless to the article. I have no care about the film whatsoever but spend a lot of time on Wikipedia cleaning up articles which i read and see as biased or misleading. This i have always done just with an IP rather than actually creating an account, basically i am saying i am neutral and want the article to be balanced and correctly referenced. But just leaving it as it is is not an option and less information is better if it is wholly accurate, rather than lots of misleading information. I appreciate you have put work into the article but it does not belong to you and my edits have only been for the good of the article whereas yours are for the good of the film...Stevowills1 (talk) 14:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also regarding your insistence that i tag the article rather than clean it up, i said that i had tried to find links to the claims made but could not, you claimed to fix them all in ten minutes, but did not. My choice is to clean the page up after spending at least an hour trying to find links to backup the claims made, if you can find proper links that work and actually refer to what is said in the article then it is upto you to do so, but like i said i have tried and not been able to, you have tried and not been able to so no i will not just tag errors and leave them. Stevowills1 (talk) 14:22, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do me a favour and follow the two links you claim show the emails, THEY DO NOT. I can only assume you have some archive on your personal hard drive which is showing a page which does not show in other peoples browsers. This is not supporting the article in any way. The site i refer to selling it is africanholocaust not imdb, that is a new link you just added in your last edit! You are purposely misleading and seriously in breach of conflict of interest. I am respecting the rules of wikipedia, you are not by repeatedly trying to promote the content of the film above the integrity of the article itself. The apparent quote by california newsreel is from the trivia section of imdb which is user edited and does not have any evidence to support its own claim, it is not a reliable source for a quote made by a separate entity without proof. You are clearly more "up" on how to edit but in this instance it does not disguise the fact that you are purposely misleading readers of the article in order to further your own personal beliefs on whether the UK is institutionally racist. If you would like to refer this all to somebody more senior please do as i have done nothing to violate the rules of wikipedia. I have in fact cleaned up the article so that it is fact based not opinion based
YOU REPEATEDLY LINK WEBSITES THAT EITHER DO NOT HAVE ANY RELEVANCE TO THE APPARENT QUOTES, ARE DEAD (MORE THAN ONCE) OR ARE NOT VIABLE SOURCES Stevowills1 (talk) 15:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
imdb trivia page is your support for a quote attributed to California Newsreel? It is a user edited page, anyone can claim to have a quote from anybody else and post it there! It is not a reliable source for a quote especially when it has such ramifications for the integrity of that organisation. It therefore cannot be deemed a reliable or unbiased sourceThe blink link works but as per my previous post on this talk page it has no relevance to the Danny Cohen quote which cannot be supported by any reference/link (we have both tried to find it) I see you have now moved where the reference falls in the article but again it is worthless to the actual content, it is about a different subject (big brother tv show) and blink itself has no source for the Danny Cohen quote. What is the point exactly of linking that page?Stevowills1 (talk) 16:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In fact lets go back to your claim to have referenced two emails which PROVE the quote is real. Please provide the link to the page on this page, here, so there is no doubt it exists. Following each of the reference links in the article as you have it does not show this. IF YOU HAVE IT PLEASE LINK IT otherwise it is just a bogus claim Stevowills1 (talk) 16:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That is a proper link yes, but it is also the first time you have provided it. Please see your previous links, they are not the same as this and referencing a page is supposed to be that, not just the same website. As i said if you have the proof then perfect but you had repeatedly linked a different page! and you tell me to learn how to reference? I accept that is an image of an email from channel 4 and as i have previously stated upon seeing the proof it should be included, but please see your earlier edits where you claimed to have linked the email but had not and understand my frustration. The problem i do have with the email is that it has already been manipulated to remove certain details therefore the integrity of it is questionable, as is the place where it is actually found is a site linked with the film. It still seems dubious to me however i will copy the link you just provided in the above comment to the article. Regarding blink yes i have read it completely, it is in relation to racism against a channel 4 show called Big Brother and more specifically Jade Goody and Shilpa Shetty, it did quote the email but without source or proof. In light of the actual email now having a link there is no need for blink to be linked with this other than trying to link an article about Channel 4's alleged racism and the fact Channel 4 did not show this film and implying a link between the two. And again stop trying to make out i am stupid and do not understand wikipedia because i disagree with your view. I have not tried to destroy your reputation in any way as you claim on my talk page i have no care for you at all, i am only interested in wikipedia articles and their integrity and you kept referencing incorrectly saying you were linking an email when you were not, because of that i thought you were deliberately misleading and had conflict of interest, i still think you have far more interest in the article matching your personal views on the film rather than being neutral. For examply the plot summary which somebody has removed for not being a plot summary, you have obviously read the article before and your MASSIVE knowledge of wikipedia never lead you to want to rewrite that in a proper way, but you went out of your way to revert my edits. Why? Stevowills1 (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
as per Wikipedia:Citing IMDb i am removing the California Newsreel quote as the source is imdb trivia section therefore inappropriate. happy Inayity i used policy... Stevowills1 (talk) 17:26, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
፭፻ doesnt work in the article-
Reference 1 is a dead link. My computer said love (talk) 00:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I recently watched this, and the claims were mostly verifiable or reasonable. Once claim was that 'the first person convicted under the British Incitement to Racial Hatred laws was an African-Carbbean man'. I can't find evidence for this claim, but I can find it quoted elsewhere. 76.21.107.221 (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Whoes criteria is this? Please give me the wikipedia policy link to "Bias" reference and what the bias is about? Also please show me where IMDB trivia is not a source for this content. Also please get specific about "claims not supported" What claim is that? Did Cohen not reject the film? Two sources say so, ONE of them shows his email. It is not a subjective statement. It is a direct quote. And where are the "dead links"--Inayity (talk) 15:51, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Plot edited as of December 10, 2015. Ewells64 (talk) 20:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The plot section does not include any plot - it looks like marketing material. How is it a plot section, exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 16:40, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, as per Wikipedia:Copy-paste and Wikipedia:Copyright problems that would not have sufficed would it? Now you can't be a stickler for policy when it suits your view and then dismiss it when it does notStevowills1 (talk) 17:32, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You are going into this though, and it was not a quote it was copy and paste lol, even if it were a "quote" as per Wikipedia:Quotations it should have been properly attributed and referenced.Stevowills1 (talk) 17:39, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
you "changed" it only once somebody else had input, you have been all over the article prior to this and never felt the need to change it. Why? You only suggested quotations after somebody else changed it, did you not care for the quality of the article or wiki policy prior to that? Obviously i am being funny with you but after all of your condescending comments toward me it is fun for me to poke fun at you. Whats funnier is you will more than likely comment again as you need to have the last word lol either way this is my last post on the matter of the "plot" section unless it is changed again, have fun...Stevowills1 (talk) 17:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article accuses an identified living person - Danny Cohen, with saying "It's an interesting idea but I'm afraid, with limited slots available, it's not one I feel strongly enough about to take forward." Please provide a source for this possibly defamatory statement.
This article states that "California Newsreel" said "While we applaud your effort to present African and African American history in a new and more favorable light, we think that your innovative techniques and broad scope are too radical for our largely academic market." Please provide a source for this statement. Hipocrite (talk) 16:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article states that "California Newsreel" said "While we applaud your effort to present African and African American history in a new and more favorable light, we think that your innovative techniques and broad scope are too radical for our largely academic market." Please provide a source for this statement. Hipocrite (talk) 17:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Having thought more about it what purpose does a rejection email from Channel 4 serve in the article? Like Hipocrite has stated it is more a review than anything else. Do other articles regularly quote and reference emails from television channels about whether they will show their film or not? I am searching through wiki policy now to try to get a better understanding of why it has a place or why not, unless somebody else knows one way or the other? I am not sure if it should be left in or deleted until there is a concrete reason referring to wiki policy either wayStevowills1 (talk) 17:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand the logic of linking an article on uk race relations to a positive quote made by the same producer who is apparently part of the racist organization. If the quote is there to show that Danny Cohen was in favour of the film then why is it supported by an article which is insinuating Channel 4(and Danny Cohen) is racist. Either something along the lines of "Some thought that it's rejection by mainstream UK tv channel 4 may have been attributable to racism within the organization" (along with a link to blink) or the Danny Cohen quote without the blink link and a further section for the race relations thoughts. Wouldn't that be better and more balanced? Rather than just implying that was the reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevowills1 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is a legitimate complaint, that is why i suggested a separate section of the article, rather than mixing that discussion with the reception section and implying that Danny Cohen liked the film but due to its content would not be suitable. In short the section at the moment reads almost like this "everyone agreed the film was really good but there was no way we, as racial institutions, would allow our viewers to see such content" which is not what the section should be about, or should at least explicitly make the implication rather than trying to force readers opinion to that end. Would you agree, regardless of my use of policy in this instance that would be the best way for the article to be presented?Stevowills1 (talk) 18:29, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Other films which quote emails verifiable only as images would be great, thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 16:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And for fun, here is even more reading on the topic, this time on a [Project Talk page]. I don't believe the language discussed there moved forward to the Project page (though bits and pieces can be found throughout WP Project pages), but you can clearly see the principle at work. Bienmanchot (talk) 20:08, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am opening this subsection and section with plans to expand this article. Those interested are welcome. And those with opinions about the expansion, are welcome to voice them here too. Thanks Cheers, Historiador (talk) 16:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A group of Virginia Tech students are working on this article under my supervision. They are engaged in expanding and improving it. The group's involvement (not individual editors) in the article will not take more than two weeks. Though we are working on this article as a group, we are aware that the article belongs to the community and that our contributions are guided by Wikipedia's rules and practices. If you see areas where we can improve, please, let us know. And, do please, share your thoughts and contributions. Our involvement, as a group, should not preclude your inputs. Thanks and cheers, Historiador (talk) 17:54, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]