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Latest comment: 1 month ago14 comments6 people in discussion
"Some who identify as antifa also use tactics involving digital activism, doxing, harassment, physical violence, and property damage."
Why is it worded like this? The article clearly says that they are highly decentralized and autonomous and the cited articles mention they are anonymous, but then uses word play to suggest that those who do perpetrate the bad acts aren't actually Antifa, but then says all antifa, and antifa members, all stand for the same thing and go about it the same way and if they don't they aren't necessarily antifa? The intent is questionable at best. You can't use such broad strokes and generalizations for all Antifa. The wording should be along the lines of "Some Antifa Members are known to protest using the following methods" or omit the word "some", you can't pick and choose what forms of protest are Antifa approved, there isn't some membership book that says who is and isn't antifa and retroactively revoke it when they do something that isnt "antifa approved" by a non-existent governing body. The preceding sentence states that (all) Antifa use *These Methods* but some people who identify as antifa use *These Methods*. I read the cited articles and none of them mention this facet, no paraphrasing or anything. It's a complete sentence making a bold and specific claim with no citation, or worse, an unrelated citation. HoadRog (talk) 04:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
If there is no membership, then we cannot call anyone a member. United States anti-abortion movement#Violence says, "A small extremist element of the [pro-life] movement in the US supports, raises money for, and attempts to justify anti-abortion violence, including murders of abortion workers." Maybe the broader movement in both cases encourages violence and should be held responsible. But that's not for us to say. Instead, we report those claims with attribution to whomever made them. TFD (talk) 05:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
This new editor has made 20 edits in all, the last edit being at Talk:Fake news 29 months ago. Doug Wellertalk 07:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
And who made the claim? there is no citation for this. The writing says almost verbatim that members of Antifa do this but that some people who identify antifa do this as-well, why is there this distinction? What is the source for saying Antifa members take action A but some people who identify as Antifa take action B instead? What is the justification for making it a stand-a-lone sentence that insinuates that people who take action B might not be antifa but that ALL antifa take action A? It should be grouped in the sentence that came directly before it.
As with what you said, why not make it say, "Some/small extremist elements of Antifa are known to protest using (List methods)." HoadRog (talk) 17:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
The writing says almost verbatim that members of Antifa do this but that some people who identify antifa do this as-well, why is there this distinction?
Er, no, it doesn't. It doesn't make a distinction, it specifcially uses people who identify as antifaprecisely because it's a voluntary label, not a formal membership. You're reading a distinction that isn't there. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 19:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
If membership is voluntary or self identifying, then why does the sentence that lists negative attributes prefaced with the self identifying moniker, but none of the preceding sentences are? Why is that not established earlier? It should be, "some people who identify as antifa take part in antifacist and antiracist political movements." If it's voluntary and self identifying, then I can easily provide anecdotal evidence that there are members of antifa that do not take part in antifacist and antiracist political movements by self identifying as Antifa. It's literally a no true Scotsman fallacy. Either give pretext for the entire article about this distinction clearly or don't do it at all. Shoe horning a disclaimer into a separate sentence listing negative actions taken by the group is disingenuous. The actions need to be added to the ones already listed, not made into their own without any independent main idea, the sentence exists only to say those actions are committed by some people who identify as antifa, hinting at them not actually being antifa. All the while the previous sentences make no mention of the self identifying characteristic of Antifa. If the group is self identifying, why is it only said in the fourth sentence, but the editor opted to not put it in the next or previous sentence about the exact same topic- actions taken by the group? Without a source, mind you. There should be a full complete sentence somewhere in the first paragraph noting this facet of Antifa, being that the group has no formal membership or that anyone can self identify voluntarily to be Antifa. And then remove the "Some people who identify as Antifa" part :) HoadRog (talk) 07:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
If it’s self identifying, then the first half of the sentence is redundant. You can’t say there is only one group when you also say “antifa” and then “some people who identify as antifa” you made two distinct groups by adding that to the sentence unnecessarily. If you want to say “antifa=people who identify as antifa” that must be said very early on in the article, and then pick which term you want to use throughout the article, either antifa or people who identify as antifa. If you absolutely want to use them interchan geably, and I can’t ever imagine why in good faith you would, you need to establish that they are the same when talking about them before you do. HoadRog (talk) 08:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
So which source specifically says that? I read through all the sources on the citation and none of them have any wording similar enough to warrant this kind of paraphrasing. actually, most of the articles included suggest membership is tangible. In-fact, a verbatim quote from the ADL source listed in citation no.6 says:
"While some antifa use their fists, other violent tactics include throwing projectiles, including bricks, crowbars, homemade slingshots, metal chains, water bottles, and balloons filled with urine and feces. They have deployed noxious gases, pushed through police barricades, and attempted to exploit any perceived weakness in law enforcement presence.
"Away from rallies, they also engage in “doxxing,” exposing their adversaries’ identities, addresses, jobs and other private information."
It needs to be re-worded. HoadRog (talk) 08:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
That is a totally disingenuous read of those citations. Nothing about that suggests membership is tangible.
Also, resurrecting a section that's been dead for over 2 months is not a good look. WP:DEADHORSE applies here. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 12:50, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Hey, i'm just bringing attention to the ongoing isuse. Even if you think membership isn't tangible, why did the paraphrasing from the ADL source include a part that the ADL did not mention? it's like a reverse omission to include it. The ADL word-for-word is "antifa members do this." not "some who identify as antifa members do this." Someone who made that intro took some "creative liberties" on the paraphrasing is all im saying. I'll leave it at that and hope another individual comes along and has an interest in the subject like, say, Mr. @The Four Deuces who was the first to reply on the topic. I will leave it there if you wish? HoadRog (talk) 07:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't believe the ADL is, as a source, appropriately due for statements in Wiki voice regardless. Simonm223 (talk) 12:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
It would be helpful if you provided links so editors don't have to find the version of the article you are referring to or the ADL article used. TFD (talk) 15:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the source they used in the second to last sentence of the introduction. If you go to the 2nd and 3rd to last paragraphs of the ADL article it states that antifa members use doxing and violence among a few other tactics - not people who identify as antifa do.
ADL says: "While some antifa use their fists, other violent tactics include throwing projectiles, including bricks, crowbars, homemade slingshots, metal chains, water bottles, and balloons filled with urine and feces. They have deployed noxious gases, pushed through police barricades, and attempted to exploit any perceived weakness in law enforcement presence."
"Away from rallies, they also engage in “doxxing,” exposing their adversaries’ identities, addresses, jobs and other private information. This can lead to their opponents being harassed or losing their jobs, among other consequences. Members of the alt right and other right wing extremists have responded with their own doxxing campaigns, and by perpetuating hateful and violent narratives using fake “antifa” social media accounts."
The Wikipedia entry says:
"Some who identify as antifa also use tactics involving digital activism, doxing, harassment, physical violence, and property damage."
It's just odd to include the "Who identify as" part when the rest of the intro doesn't make that distinction. The preceding sentence and the proceeding sentence do not do so, and they deal in absolutes about what antifa stands for and does. HoadRog (talk) 21:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
I don’t think this is necessary. Antifa is fundamentally anti-fascist (hence the name), but all people in Antifa don’t necessarily participate in violence. I dunno, I think it’s pretty simple. Professor Penguino (talk) 05:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Pacific Beach Events
Latest comment: 5 hours ago5 comments4 people in discussion
Is the Pacific Beach "antifa trial" being covered anywhere on Wikipedia?
An·ti·fanouna political protest movement comprising autonomous groups affiliated by their militant opposition to fascism and other forms of extreme right-wing ideology. 2601:245:C480:2590:933:901C:70C2:C3D0 (talk) 23:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. Acroterion(talk) 23:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Extremist organization
Latest comment: 9 hours ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Antifa should have extremist in their description They took part in many violent atacks,from normal assaults to assaults with deadly weapons (the "bike lock incident") 213.233.85.208 (talk) 22:17, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
You seem to be making a claim based on original research. It would be more compelling if you could point to reliable sources that use the terminology. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:43, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
