Talk:Flag of the United States/Archive 5
Mullets and Bars
The appellation "Stars and Stripes", though long-established,is incorrect heraldry. The flag's field is "barry", i.e. consists of bars, not stripes. And the charge is not of stars,(estoilles, which have wavy sides), but of mullets. A mullet is NOT a star, but an unpierced spur rowel, worn with armour when horse-riding. It has straight sides. 122.59.10.108 (talk) 03:30, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
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Flower flag
This section is strange. The US flag was near identical to the East India Company flag. Chinese and Japanese would have been "very" familiar with the East India Company flag for over 100 years. Why they would have been attracted to this flag I find odd, and doubt the authenticity.94.5.29.93 (talk) 10:37, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
- The East India Company flag didn't have stars, which, as I understand the mention, stars are what they were referring to as flowers perhaps in combination with the stripes. Apparently, they didn't think the Union Jack on the East India Company flag was beautiful. - BilCat (talk) 21:08, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Recommended Deletion
In Flag of the United States, section 4.8 Display at half-staff, July 27 National Korean War Armistice Day is listed as one of six half-staff dates by Federal statute. However, at the very end of this section it is stated that it has been a date of full-staff observance since 2009. Therefore I recommend deleting the initial listing of July 27 as a half-staff date to avoid confusion. FlagAdvocate (talk) 16:09, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Hemp
The paragraph about the First Flag / Grand Union Flag ends with the notice that the first american flags were made out of hemp.But isn't that always called *linen* if you talk about cloth made from hemp fibres? And linen, besides wool and silk should be one of the most common cloths to make clothing out of in those days, not sure how common cotton would have been in 1770 and synthetics were definitely still a thing of the distant future by then...). I think the note should be changed to remove the confusing "hemp" that sounds as if somebody wanted to allege to marihuana, which would not be true at all, linen does not make you high. 178.203.29.150 (talk) 17:23, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Design
Under the Creation heading the article states that Robert G. Heft is credited with the design of the current 50-star flag. However if you follow the Robert G. Heft link, the associated article states that:
- 1. It is a myth that he designed the flag.
- 2. There is no evidence that his design was considered by the official flag committee.
- 3. Many people put forth exactly the same design.
- 4. Although his design is the same as the one which was chosen, that is nothing more than coincidence.
Obviously something needs to change because we now have two articles which directly contradict one another. I have started a New Section on the Talk Page of the Robert G. Heft (talk) article and that is where you should go if you wish to be involved in trying to gain a consensus around this issue. FillsHerTease (talk) 01:36, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
OR tag on Similar flags section
Flag_of_the_United_States#Similar_flags has been tagged as WP:OR by User:Moxy, and I agree. The inclusion criterion is completely subjective, and it seems quite far-fetched to claim that many (or even most) of the currently-included flags are similar to the US flag. I suggest removing this section completely, and possibly replacing it with a section on flags for which WP:RS exist showing that the flags were based on the American flag (some of the current flags have legitimate, albeit mostly unsourced, claims of this). Meters (talk) 20:24, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2016
Please change the section "particular days on which the flag should be displayed" to match the source (note 96) -- in particular, add Easter and Christmas; or add another source that does not include these days.69.118.172.215 (talk) 22:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Done That was a mess. I added Mothers Day, Fathers Day, Christmas, and Easter. Also removed the random trivia about Robert E. Lee and Washington's actual birthday. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:01, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2016
These bibliography entries:
- Albert M. Rosenblatt. "Flag Desecration Statutes: History and Analysis". Washington University Law Quarterly 1972: 193–237.
- Earl P. Williams, Jr. "Did Francis Hopkinson Design Two Flags?" NAVA News, Issue 216, Oct.–Dec. 2012.
are available online here: (Rosenblatt) and (Williams) Please add links to the sources. "NAVA News" also needs to be italicized. 32.218.45.149 (talk) 14:11, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
- Done OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine 11:57, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2016
The section of this article that says "The first American flags were made out of hemp.[9]" needs to be changed. The citation reference is to a news article from 2014 that states the same thing, but provides no teference to where said information came from nor any way to back up staid information. Either more citations are needed to state this as a factual statement, or the sentence should be changed to include all possible materials the first flags may have been from as well as it stating "It is possible...." so the sentence isn't being presented as a reliable, provable fact.2601:680:C400:8349:9865:B0DD:CCF4:58D1 (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
- Done. No corroboration could be found, so the sentence in question has been removed. OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine 06:21, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
A Flag of Peacetime
According to US Civil Flags, there is a US flag for peacetime. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 08:06, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
- It is my understanding that the standard US flag is much more popular and suitable for peacetime use. OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine 06:19, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
- Lo Ximiendo -- The "Civil Flag" theory is based on a misunderstanding of a description of a U.S. customs / coast-guard flag by 19th-century writer Nathaniel Hawthorne. We have an SVG of the supposed "Civil Flag" on Wikimedia Commons, but it wouldn't be appropriate to add it to this article... AnonMoos (talk) 04:07, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
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Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2017
Please edit the Particular days for display ParagraphSeptember: First Monday (Labor Day), 17 (Constitution Day), and last Sunday (Gold Star Mother's Day)[98]Add 9/11(NYC terror attacks) Mang1009 (talk) 00:14, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
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Amazing visual coincidence
A page from a 16th-century book. I was immediately reminded of the US flag! --Edelseider (talk) 13:38, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Subdued Flag needs to be Reversed
Hello everyone. The current image of the subdued flag is mirrored/reversed from the way it is worn. The flag is worn with stars on the right side. This is to demonstrate how a flag would be waving as a soldier moves forward, and is symbolic of the idea that "These colors don't run." If it were worn as the page currently shows it, it would look like a soldier is moving backwards, or retreating.
See: https://www.marlowwhite.com/faq/f-why-is-the-flag-patch-reversed.html -- 07:59, 15 July 2017 74.96.65.12
- Hello right back at ya.
- Have you possibly misunderstood the caption? It reads "A subdued-color flag patch, similar to style worn on the United States Army's ACU uniform. The patch is normally worn reversed on the right upper sleeve. See explanation in "Display on uniforms" section below."
- It explains exactly what you say above - that the flag is reversed when worn on the right. If the flag were worn on the left, it would be fine advancing into battle. The linked section also clarifies that the flag is not always worn on the right, so the image and caption are correct. Chaheel Riens (talk) 15:16, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Section on flag burning?
Has there ever been a section in this article about flag burning (in protest, not the "dignified" kind)? IMHO it deserves much more than the single sentence: "Desecration of the flag is considered a public outrage, but remains protected as freedom of speech." This sentence seems a bit POV anyway- I think "flag burning" is preferable to the word "desecration", and whether it is a "public outrage" is certainly something that people disagree with. Regardless of anybody's opinion of the practice, flag-burning is an important part of the culture and mystique of the flag in the US. If nothing else, the many supreme court cases and proposed constitutional amendments should be referenced.
- I think at least a paragraph could do it justice, with a photo. We have over a dozen photos of the flag presented in its usual "respectful" way, so I don't think one photo of "desecration" constitutes undue weight. (Sorry if this is a perennial proposal- it seems like an obvious idea to me) Staecker (talk) 23:35, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hi, sorry for lateness in replying - I've only just noticed this. It's an interesting proposal - and I happen to agree with you. However, I don't advocate change, because it seems that nobody else agrees with me/us. I was all up for changing "desecration" to "flag burning", but having looked deeper it seems that Flag desecration is the accepted term, and Flag burning is a redirect to Flag desecration anyway. A quick Google search also brings back multiple results to show that it generates "public outrage":
- I'd support an image of flag
burningdesecration being inserted, and slight expanding of the text. I might get round to it in the next day or so - but feel free to pre-empt me if you want, of course. Chaheel Riens (talk) 11:27, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'd support an image of flag
- I've made a few changes based on discussion here - plus a bit of housekeeping while I was at it. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:31, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
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Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2018
I propose adding this small addition to the bottom of the Colors section. I have an Excel spreadsheet with all of the calculations. I envision providing a link for readers to download this spreadsheet if they want to see the calculations. If it's more appropriate to provide a PDF document or other format, I am willing to do that. Here is my addition:
The ratio of the colors is as follows:Red = 41.5385%White = 39.7255%Blue = 18.7361%These calculations were done using the specifications referenced above along with the appropriate trigonometric formulas. The attached spreadsheet shows the calculations. BaronRunsFast (talk) 00:33, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- Not done: Adding such a section would qualify as a problem under our No Original Research policy and I'm afraid can't be accepted. Thank you for you efforts, however. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:45, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 January 2018
184.147.106.141 (talk) 01:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 02:59, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: In the original edit I find the text
Its currently governed by Justin Tredeau.
But it's still not clear what should be changed. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 03:01, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Historical progression of designs
I think when there are mulitple states like 20 star flag it should be by admission not abc order — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.94.118 (talk) 18:55, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Incorrect Colors
I have noticed that the colors of the American Flag look off. After looking at the American Flag page on usa.gov[1] and a website on repoducing colors from real life on computers[2], I have come to the conclusion that the colors on the Wikipedia page are incorrect. I feel that the American Flag ,as important and iconic as it is, should be as close to perfect as possible. Especially since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.According to the professionals in color reproduction and printing[3] the colors should be as follows.
Old Glory Blue - RGB: 0, 33, 71Old Glory Red - RGB: 187, 19, 62White - RGB: 255, 255, 255Alex Microbe (talk) 04:54, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- Isn't this better covered in the Colors section of the article? Chaheel Riens (talk) 06:32, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- Alex_Microbe -- as has been discussed a number of times in the past, flag colors are specified in a device-independent description system, while computer RGB colors are inherently device-dependent, so there can be no RGB specification of flag colors which is "correct" for all purposes... AnonMoos (talk) 09:48, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Flag of the British East India Company.
Hi, Flag of the British East India Company on this article is mentioned as from 1707–1801 whereas under the article Flag of the East India Company the same flag is mentioned as the flag between 1668 and 1801. Why this huge variation in age of usage? Thanks. --Pearll's SunTALK 14:28, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
- 1707 was when the Flag of England was replaced by the Flag of Great Britain for most purposes at sea... The 1668-1801 dating comes from the opinion that the St. George Cross was maintained in the canton for the whole period, while the 1707–1801 dating comes from the opinion that the canton was changed to the union flag (i.e. St. George + St. Andrew combination) in 1707... AnonMoos (talk) 16:28, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Flag
The flag display is the war flag of the USA shouldn't you be showing the civil Flag of a nation? Just a thought 8CH8 (talk) 06:40, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- Uh huh... EvergreenFir (talk) 06:43, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- The "civil flag" is a popular historical myth that was never a real thing. See past discussions: Civil flag, Vertical stripes?, United States Civil Flag. Staecker (talk) 10:55, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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Francis Hopkinson's flag; with six-pointed "marian stars" (not common "star of david")
i just want to suggest to put clarification and link about the kind of six-pointed stars used on the Francis Hopkinson's flag: "marian star" (List_of_symbolic_stars#Religious_and_supernatural_uses, commons:File:Marian_star_four-tenths.svg) instead that the more common "star of david".
--151.38.136.72 (talk) 11:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
- "Marian", in this context, seems to refer to Roman Catholic veneration of Mary, mother of Jesus. I am unaware of any indication Roman Catholic symbolism was used in any flag discussed here.
- You are suggesting this to clarify that it is not the Star of David. The Star of David is typically depicted as two overlapping triangles, not a filled in star, and would have been anachronistic in the 18th century in any case.
- Nothing in the text suggests any religious symbolism of any kind. I'm not seeing anything to improve here. - SummerPhDv2.0 13:22, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Elements about flag origin as mix between Grand Union Flag and personal Washington flag "blue with 13 six-pointed stylized stars"
I report something interesting from description of a 1782 portrait from James Peale (Charles Peale brother):
- "Note the blue flag with pointed stars that became George Washington’s personal flag in 1775"
and, about this:
- "As Commander-in-Chief, George Washington followed typical European tradition by having a flag designed for himself as leader of the army. In those days, monarchs, generals and other leading officials often had their own personal standards. The flag would have been located anywhere General Washington was present, whether on the battlefield, at headquarters or on the march. It is sometimes referred to as the Washington's Headquarters Flag"
- "The original Washington's Commander-in-Chief Flag (http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/images/original-washingtons-commander-in-chief-flag.jpg) is in the possession of the American Revolution Center in Philadelphia. It was donated to the Center's predecessor, the Valley Forge Historical Society, in the early 20th century, by Francis B. Lovell, a descendant of George Washington's sister, Betty Washington Lewis.
other about:
- File:Logo_of_the_Museum_of_the_American_Revolution.png (Logo of the Museum of the American Revolution in Philadelfia)
- NOTE: The above linked logo is inspired to the original George Washington flag showed in the Museum, which has 13 six-pointed stylized stars very similar to the Unicode Character 'SIX POINTED BLACK STAR' (U+2736) ✶ (every stars is some degrees turned - not 90° painted); a lot of this original flag reproduction use the "marian/northern/german" stylized stars but not turned, instead the original "strange" stars.
- --151.18.35.144 (talk) 08:12, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- https://www.amrevmuseum.org/collection/washingtons-headquarters-flag
- http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/youasked/038.htm
- https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-washi.html
- http://www.usflag.org/washingtons.flag.1775.html
So, as Washington was member of the Anglican Church, is not hard to recognize the Anglican rose (related and so similar to the marian star) design in the stylized six-pointed stars he chose for his personal flag, that in number of 13 are aligned resemblant both a starry sky (new constellation..) and to the link with the 3 cross of the "mother" uk flag. Is not to forget that as he was also Freemasons, he knew to look at all the things even in the symbolism way: is improbable that all this were random facts.
- Grand Union Flag
(until 1776) - Hopkinson Flag
6-pointed stars - Flag of the United States (1777–1795)
5-pointed stars
...looking how was the "usa" flag before and what was after, its so easy to see the actual USA flag as a cross between Grand Union Flag and personal Washington flag "blue with 13 six-pointed stylized stars (Anglican rose/Marian star)", just with stars changed in number (as the states grown) and from six-pointed to five-pointed.
I think a new article Washington's Commander-in-Chief Flag is good idea to be made, where to expose all about that flag, but at least a .svg picture of this Washington's flag is required.
--151.18.96.190 (talk) 08:37, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
- A good bit of what you are saying here seems to be synthesis. Boiling it down, what are you trying to add or change here and what is your source? - SummerPhDv2.0 16:49, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
- Other about:
- "Revolutionary Americans adopted various symbols to represent the new republic that they created after the Declaration of Independence," said Dr. R. Scott Stephenson, vice president of collections, exhibitions and programs for the museum. "Washington's Standard includes a blue field with thirteen white stars representing a new constellation, which Congress adopted in 1777 as a component of the now familiar 'Star-Spangled Banner.'"
- source:
- witf.org "George Washington's battlefield flag on view at revolution museum"
- (Written by The Associated Press | Jun 14, 2018 12:18 PM )
- --151.34.151.110 (talk) 17:42, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
Request for addition for 'symbolism' section
Can we put in the following section for 'symbolism' with the following similar or quoted content:
"Symbolism of the American FlagThe Symbolism of the American Flag is of revolutionary significance. Beginning with 13, the now 50 stars displayed in the canton of the flag represent the current number of states in the union. This number has followed the growth of the united-states since its infancy. Found from a book about the symbolism of the American Flag published in 1977 by the House of Representatives we read:
"The star is a symbol of the heavens and the divine goal to which man has aspired from time immemorial; the stripe is symbolic of the rays of light emanating from the sun."
The Symbolism of the Flag's ColorsAlternating in red and white, the 13 stripes also represent the 13 original colonies that joined together to declare their independence from Britain in order to establish themselves as a sovereign nation.
Betsy Ross US FlagOriginally, the colors red, white and blue had neither specific meaning nor representation when the flag was adopted in 1777. However, the colors in the Great Seal of the United States did have specific meanings. Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress, reporting to Congress on the Seal, stated:
"The colors of the pales (the vertical stripes) are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness & valour, and Blue, the color of the Chief (the broad band above the stripes) signifies vigilance, perseverance & justice."
More information on the Symbolism of the American Flag can be found here."
This above is a verbatium copy from this source: https://www.colonialflag.com/symbolism-of-the-red-white-and-blue/But it gives a better background/explanation of the symbolism behind the flag, which I was bummed wasn't found on this page currently. I am not clear how best to source or copy , and I'm not great at editing wiki's anymore, so I leave it to the power users to decide and hopefully implement. Thanks! Time Dilation Theory (talk) 20:13, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
- I too would like to see something canonical on this subject of the flag. I was looking for a description of the symbolism behind the parts and design of the flag, and was disappointed to not find it. Mrsuperboot (talk) 17:31, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2019
Citation #78 (Rasmussen, Frederick N. (July 3, 2010). "A half-century ago, new 50-star American flag debuted in Baltimore". The Baltimore Sun.) is a broken link. IdmFoundInHim (talk) 17:04, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Done Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia! Breawycker (talk to me!) 21:48, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 04 September 2019
Need to add meaning of colors to the first section as well as an added citation:
"The colors of the flag are symbolic as well; red symbolizes hardiness and valor, white symbolizes purity and innocence, and blue represents vigilance, perseverance and justice." (from https://www.pbs.org/a-capitol-fourth/history/old-glory/)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 40.128.138.54 (talk • contribs) 21:26, September 4, 2019 (UTC)
- We probably should have something in about the commonly repeated claim of the colors symbolism. That statement is a bit too "just so", though.
- Here's what I've come up with:
- Originally, the colors were not intended to symbolize anything and were most likely simply borrowed from the Union Jack.
- The supposed symbolism of red, white and blue is drawn from heraldry. Charles Thomson, Secretary of the Continental Congress, discussing the proposed U.S. Seal, gave symbolic meanings for the colors in the seal, drawn from heraldry with white signifying purity and innocence; red, hardiness and valor; and blue signifying vigilance, perseverance and justice. Over time, that explanation came to be associated with the flag.
- Over the years, other interpretations have included that red is for the blood of patriots, spilled in the fight to protect the country. In 1986, president Ronald Reagan gave his own interpretation, saying, "The colors of our flag signify the qualities of the human spirit we Americans cherish. Red for courage and readiness to sacrifice; white for pure intentions and high ideals; and blue for vigilance and justice."[1]
- I'm adding that in and we'll see where it goes. - SummerPhDv2.0 20:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 6 September 2019
I would like to request a change to the table in the "Historical progression of designs" subsection. The flag used between 1795 and 1818 is the only one to have a number of stripes other than 13, so it strikes me as needlessly taking up space to have a "Number of stripes" column in the table. It would make more sense, in my opinion, to remove the column and instead add something to the "States represented by new stars" column saying that the 1795-1818 flag was the only one to have 15 stripes.
My request: Please remove the "Number of stripes" column in the table under the "Historical progression of designs" subsection, and instead add some text to the 1795-1818 flag explaining that this was the only version to have 15 stripes. This is how I want the table to look:
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Thank you in advance. - 212.130.152.24 (talk) 02:47, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2019
In the first sentence, the link to the Glossary of Vexillology article on the word canton is broken.
"The flag of the United States of America, ..., with a blue rectangle in the canton (referred to specifically as the "union") ..."
The link should point to the Flag elements section of that page. Theaquariumest (talk) 22:53, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
hulbert flag and other comments
The encyclopedia britannica (1993 edition, article Stars and Stripes)
- reports an Hulbert Flag with the 13 stars in a diamond (1-3-5-3-1).
- reports a 76 or Bennington flag that is an heavy exception to the approved rules of the time.
- says that the proportions were standardized in 1912; I feel that this year may be extracted from the section Design, but I would like to find it stated just before the comment on the standardization of colors in 1934
- says that the union of the Grand Union Flag is not the Union Jack, but its predecessor British Union Flag
Mousing from the screen into a file, I have noted the existence of files named WagonwheelStar.svg or something like. I do not know if these filenames correspond to almost-official nicknames or are simply tools of the article's authors (I am italian, as should be clear from the poor form of the above sentence), but if have a minimal agreement are surely more interesting than the number of stripes
pietro151.29.25.24 (talk) 07:01, 10 December 2019 (UTC)