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After rewrite discussion
Hi again team
Thanks again, DDS, for reaching out to the goddesses of copyright, and my thanks to Diannaa for letting me out of jail!
And good to get more history and background around the life, times and contributions of Sloths and Gnomes!
Now - WW - getting back to business…
First, re your query re the Australia 2008 Summit, that was indeed a long time ago, and there must have been close on a 1000 attendees (certainly it felt like that). I don’t think my participation had any special significance so perhaps that sentence and the two links could be removed?
So now, to provide you with hopefully useful - and useable - suggestions (edits plus sources) for your ‘new‘ now live Garrett article, it would obviously be a piece of cake if we were in email contact and I could send you track change suggestions, and comments, which you could accept or ignore.
But assuming this ain’t possible - and noting your clear previous instruction ‘don’t edit this!’ – I have produced as follows a version with edits and relevant new links included, seeking to be - as per the chat, as comprehensively ‘verifiable’ as possible (plus with explanatory footnotes with motivations/rationales).
More clunky to see where I’m suggesting changes for your consideration, but c’est la vie….
And hopefully, for ease of reading, I have moved the footnotes up to first, with the respective annotations/locations marked in the text.
Looking forward to further dialogue… Thanks! Geoff
Revised GG Wiki (GG suggestions as at 20/11/2021)
FOOTNOTES (Motivations/rationales/explanations for suggested edits)
F1 Just ‘Geoff’ please … what I’m known by, plus would avoid confusion with another Geoffrey Garrett, another Australian on WP, now Dean of the Business School at the University of California. (And ‘Graham’ never appears!)
F2 Links to AO and FTSE moved to a suggested new section (Awards) with other, hopefully also notable Society Fellowships.
F3 I understand your Rules don’t allow me to be called ‘Dr’ upfront so suggest this additional part sentence re my PhD
F4 Important to distinguish between my two extended (7 year) academic positions and the 3 short, 6 month sabbaticals … hence the word ‘visiting’ inserted.
F5 The heads of CSIR South Africa have been labelled ‘President and Chief Executive’.
F6 I have deleted ‘in order to increase revenue’ which was definitely not the objective of introducing the Flagships Program. It was all about enhancing the organisation’s impact, so I have added the ‘impact’ word a little earlier.
F7 we did receive a lot of new funding so I mention this and the detail is given in your ref [5], the 2004 SMH article.
F8 And this is very important to me. I’m OK with the sentence re ‘both approval and controversy’ (the factual reality!) - which is well covered by using your refs 4 and 5 (and my new S7 also touches on this) - but NOT to the link to the 2013 SMH article, your ref 6. That was more than five (5) years after I had left the organisation. My successor made a whole lot of changes (as happens) but I don’t think it’s fair for me to be held potentially accountable.
F9 The two links, [9] and [10], in the ‘old’ Garrett article no longer connect. The SA Society for Professional Engineers was taken ove some years back by the Engineering Council of South Africa and ‘history’ appears to have disappeared as I can no longer find a link to my 1998 Award. (I guess a snap of the certificate on my office wall won’t do the trick!) Similarly, South Africa’s ‘Boss of the Year’ also ended (through funding/sponsorship difficulties) some years back, after running for more than two decades, and there is no longer a live site. So your call whether to delate that para, or not.
F10 Very important to clearly put (Prof Sir) Graeme Davies as my co-author - we have been a very close team on our ‘herding cats’ projects across more than a decade, and to distinguish this from our more than 50 ‘consultees’.
F11 (Tongue in cheek!) I will let you know, for a follow up edit in 6 months or so’s time if and when my two children’s books - ‘Spottle the Bottle’ and ‘Billy the Buckle’ - get published!!
F12 Re the new ‘ Personal’ section, it would be great if you could mention by wife and kids (and even my 5 grandkids) by name (which I see I many people-related WP articles have. The ref/source [11] you used has the detail.
Geoff Garrett (F1) AO, is the former Queensland Chief Scientist.[1] (F2)
Garrett is a graduate of Cambridge University, where he studied metallurgy, and undertaking a PhD in fatigue and fracture of aluminium alloys (F3). He went on to hold academic positions at the University of Cape Town and the University of the Witwatersrand, and visiting positions (F4) at Brown University, Oxford University and Sheffield University.[1] He was President (F5) and Chief Executive of the South African Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) and CEO of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO).[1][4]
As CSIRO chief executive, starting in 2003 Garrett introduced changes to the management structure which were intended to increase the impact of scientific research aimed at major industrial, governmental and community problems, and implemented "flagships" (F6). He called the program, which received substantial new government funding in 2004 (F7)"one of the largest targeted scientific research programs in Australia's history".[5] His policies generated both approval and controversy.[6] (F8 - re using [4] and [5] here not [6]) In December 2008 CSIRO’s Flagship Programs received the top Prime Minister’s Award for Excellence in Public Sector Management (S1).
In 2016 he led the Great Barrier Reef water science taskforce, which reported on ways of reducing industrial pollution in the area of the reef (S2). He said that if water quality continued to deteriorate, "we’re stuffed with a capital S", and expressed concern that insufficient funds had been assigned to meet water quality targets within the time proposed.[7] He continues to provide support to the Great Barrier Reef Foundation as a member of their Partnership Management Committee (S3).
From 2017 to 2021 he was Patron of the Australian Citizen Science Association (ACSA) (S4) and, during 2020/2021 he was Science Convenor for the Australian Federal Government's Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment and currently chairs the Department's Science Council. He is also (S5) a Deputy Chair of the National Youth Science Forum.
Awards Garrett is a recipient of the Centenary Medal for service to Australian society through science (S6), and was named by the Australian Financial Review as one of Australia’s 2008 ‘True Leaders’ (S7). In June 2008 he was appointed as an Officer of the Order of Australia,[2] in the Queen’s Birthday Honours list (S8 = ‘new’ [2]). In 1998 Garrett was named ‘Engineer of the Year’ by the South African Society for Professional Engineers and South Africa’s ‘Boss of the Year’.(F re previous ‘old’ Garrett article sources [9] and [10])
He is, inter alia, a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Technology and Engineering.S9 = [3] ,an Honorary Fellow of the Engineers Australia (S10), and the Royal Society of South Africa (S11).
Publications[edit source] In 2010, Garrett and his co-author Graeme Davies(F9), with a group of co-contributors, published Herding Cats: Being Advice to Aspiring Academic and Research Leaders, described as a "non-ideological, aphoristic little book" about managing academics and researchers[8] .which has received very positive reviews (S12). Its 2013 sequel for leaders in the professions was entitled "Herding Professional Cats"[12] and its recently published 10th Anniversary Edition, also positively reviewed (S13), “Herding Cats Revisited".
F11
F12
References[edit source] ^ Jump up to: a b c "Dr Geoff Garrett AO". chiefscientist.qld.gov.au (archived). ^ "AUSTRALIAN HONOURS SEARCH FACILITY". honours.pmc.gov.au. Australian Government, Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. Retrieved 18 November 2021. ^ "ATSE:All Fellows". atse.org.au. ^ Sandland, Ron; Thompson, Graham (2012). Icon in Crisis: The Reinvention of CSIRO. UNSW Press. ISBN 978-1-7422-4597-3. ^ . smh.com.au. The Sydney Morning Herald. 7 May 2004. ^ Phillips, Nicky; Besser, Linton (12 April 2013). "Call for inquiry as CSIRO comes under the microscope". smh.com.au. The Sydney Morning Herald. ^ Slezak, Michael (25 May 2016). "Great Barrier Reef: advisers call for cap on farm pollution". theguardian.com. The Guardian. ^ Gillies, Malcolm (9 December 2010). "Herding Cats: Being Advice to Aspiring Academic and Research Leaders". timeshighereducation.com (archived).
NEW REFERENCES (‘SOURCES’)
S1 Re CSIRO’s Flagship Programs receiving the 2008 top Prime Minister’s Award for Excellence in Public Sector Management - on its way… the Inst of Public Administration Australia (IPAA) website (they have responsibility for these awards) only has them listed back to 2013 (https://www.act.ipaa.org.au/pm-winners) so I will get on to them first thing Monday to get you the full, verifiable link.
I'm off to bed, so I'll get to this list in the morning. I don't think some of these changes can be made - hopefully I can explain why to your more-or-less satisfaction - though I think others can. You're right that we can't do this over e-mail, Wikipedia business is supposed to take place here on Wikipedia, in "the public eye" as it were.
And... um... I'm not sure how to break this to you... but by copy+pasting the whole article here, you actually committed another (minor) copyright violation. Don't worry! It's all fixed, all I had to do was write - in the edit summary for this very edit - that material was copied to this page from Geoff Garrett. I learned the hard way by making the same mistake when I was very new. If you want more reading, the whole explanation for this is at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Wikignome Wintergreentalk 05:45, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OOPS! oh no! sorry for the extra work WW!
...and in the meantime, herewith a PS to the above
Re the other half of the para, I will call the Eng Council of SA on Monday, and see if they have an archivist who can dig out the ‘98 SASPE record and a usable link. So maybe trust me and leave/put it in (as it was in the ‘old’ Garrett article) for the time being?
Cheers Geoff
Since we're now firmly back to talking about article content, this should really be discussed at Talk:Geoff Garrett so anyone interested can notice it and join in if they wish. I will copypaste the recent discussion there, where discussion can continue. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:07, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
F1/Name: This is "house-style" (WP:MOS) so to speak. We separate article title, "what do people usually call you" from what the gov tattled is your name[1]. Compare Mel Gibson, Mahatma Gandhi or Cat Stevens (now you can tell your wife that you have been compared to Mel Gibson). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:36, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here's my analysis of the rest of the points. Gråbergs Gråa Sång, can I get a second opinion from you on whether my various reasonings are sound?
F2/Awards section: Reasonable suggestion, but two items would make a sadly short list; if we get agreement for adding another award (see i.e. S6, S10), I think this can be done.
F3/Doctorate: Sounds reasonably uncontroversial, but based on the sources we have, we can only say either "completed a doctorate" or "researched material fatigue and fracture". None of the sources combine those two statements, unfortunately.
F4/Specifying visiting positions: Sounds reasonably uncontroversial, sources support it; I'm okay with this.
F5/President and Chief Executive: Sounds reasonably uncontroversial, sources support it; I'm okay with this.
F6/Revenue: This is directly supported by the 2013 Morning Herald article. Quote: "In their place he introduced entities called 'flagships', which are more focused on generating revenue." This is an excellent source so I think it needs to be followed. I can more closely paraphrase the wording, if that would help?
F7/New funding: I've now hit a paywall and can't see any more articles. Oy. But this seems fine, as long as the source supports it.
F8/2013 article: This article specifically discusses your tenure as CEO and the effect of the policies you implemented, down in the 13th and 14th paragraphs, and as I said above, it's an excellent source. We should use as much of its info as we can.
F9/Awards: Neither award appears to be notable by our standards, and the sources are not independent. To be included in an awards list, an award should be either notable or impeccably sourced; otherwise articles become cluttered with long lists of random awards that - to be brutally frank - are not at all encyclopedic and don't belong on Wikipedia.
F10/Co-author: Sounds reasonably uncontroversial, sources support it; I'm okay with this.
F11/Ha. Let us know how the books sell, maybe you'll be the next JRR Tolkien!
F12/Family names: No can do, per the second paragraph of WP:BLPNAME, and since the source is weak. We need a really, really, really good source to include the names of non-notable living family members.
S1/IPAA award: Institute of Public Administration Australia - a notable organization! I think we can use this. It's not really about Dr. Garrett, specifically, but close enough. Just need something to cite. Conditional
S2/Taskforce final report: Doesn't link to anything. I am confuzzled.
S3/GBRF: Great Barrier Reef Foundation - a notable organization! I think we can use this to cite a mention of being on the Partnership Management Committee.
S4/ACSA: Not a notable organization, so doesn't merit a mention.
S5/NYSF: Does have an article (National Youth Science Forum) but that article has no sources except the NYSF. Not good, not at all good.
S6/Centenary Medal: Centenary Medal - notable award, good source.
S7/The List: Ouch, hit a paywall again. Can't read it. Looks reliable/independent though.
S8/Queen's Birthday: Sounds reasonably uncontroversial, sources support it; I'm okay with this.
S9/ATSE: In the article already.
S10/Engineers Australia: Engineers Australia - looks notable, I think we can use this to support a mention of the honorary fellowship.
S11/RSSA: I mentioned this website above; I'm not sure a mention of "Dr. GG Garrett" is enough. Waiting for a second opinion.
S12/Reviews: Book reviews sourced to the publisher's website fail the independence requirement, I think.
Some of your ‘ticks’ have still to be implemented, which I assume you will action?
So I might wait ‘til that happens before (and if) commenting further. I’ve had a good bash at having my say and we might just have to agree to disagree about some of your ‘crosses’. (Plus it does seem kinda weird commenting about myself in the third person!)
But in the meantime, for your consideration, just a couple of points…
– Re the S2 link not working, re our GBR Water Science Task Force report, this should do the trick ….
- Re-your comments on S12, S13 reviews and their ‘independence’ perhaps you could take a look at the actual reviews (if you haven’t had a chance yet)….
I've indented your comments for you, I hope you don't mind. Indenting is more important out here on more public talk pages, to help people follow long, complex conversations. Signing your posts (with four of these: ~) is also important, but there's a friendly robot who will sign unsigned comments, so no biggie.
I'm waiting for a second opinion before implementing the changes - I'd like to make sure I have consensus (WP:Consensus) on my policy arguments. If no one responds within a few days, I'll just make the changes. Things usually move slowly out here in the more public areas of Wikipedia. We even have an essay about that: Wikipedia:There is no deadline.
Thanks for the S2 link, it's quite interesting. I'm not sure there's a way to use it here, but it might actually be useful over at Great Barrier Reef or one of the related articles, perhaps one on pollution. I'll poke about there later, it's still the middle of the night for me (why haven't I gone back to bed yet?? Wikipedia is addicting).
I know the reviews in S12, S13 are credited to (presumably independent) people, but they're compromised by being published by the publisher of the book (too often we find the reviews were not "very positive", it's just that the publisher conveniently forgot to include the negative ones...). Also, the folks listed don't seem to be professional book reviewers/literary critics, and those are the people whose opinions we look for.
You'll be shocked, I know, to find we have Rules about including mentions of books people have written. Generally the rule is: either a notable book (WP:NBOOK) or mentioned by a good source. The Times Higher Education review is a good source. I couldn't find any reviews of the other two books, though - I did look. Do you know of any? Wikignome Wintergreentalk 09:55, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks WW.
I'll hang on for the 'few days' you mention before (and if) commenting further, inc re the books.
In the meantime, re the S2 link - and good to hear your found it interesting, a lot of effort went in - why not use it as I suggested in my draft re-write (above) of your article, in para 3, ie "In 2016 he led the Great Barrier Reef water science taskforce, which reported on ways of reducing industrial pollution in the area of the reef (S2)"
Re: use in para 3 - we already have a really excellent source for that bit, the Guardian article, which talks much more about you, specifically, and your role, and has nice juicy quotes. The task force report seems to have a lot of great stuff about the reef and pollution, but basically nothing about you at all; it does say you were the chair, which is fair to include here if you think it's important, but it will be much more helpful in improving our coverage of the reef than in improving our coverage about you. Wikignome Wintergreentalk 15:45, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, WW, and I'm glad you found our Task Force report useful to add to your GBR article. And yes, I would appreciate your also adding it to 'my' article, if you would, along the lines of my suggested sentence above ... it provides rigour and evidence to the Guardian article and my quotes therein, which I'm glad you like, btw!
And FYI, on the day of the press conference I actually said ".... stuffed with a Capital 'S, bold, underlined" but truncated I hope it still made/makes the point....
Well, by our standards it'll be more like the Guardian article backing up the report, but I think it's probably fine, I'll make that change too. If there are no third-party objections by tomorrow morning (my time), I'll work on incorporating the checkmarked items. Still need something to cite for S1, though. Wikignome Wintergreentalk 01:08, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
F7: Is this the relevant text? Dr Garrett said over the next four years CSIRO would redirect $400 million of its own funds to the flagships and expected to raise $245 million from external sources. Try archive.org btw, that sometimes work.
F8: Current WP-text His policies generated both approval and controversy.[2]
That seems ok (perhaps criticism instead of controversy) per smh Critics say that while the goals of many flagships were worthy, it was inappropriate for the research of the country's leading scientific organisation to be tied to financial benchmarks because it stifled scientific discovery. which I read as being about Garrett's work. However, I note that the next paragraph, Under the present [2013] structure... can't reasonably be about Garrett if he left in 2008.[3]. I don't want to throw out smh 2013 since we are a bit short on independent coverage as it is.
We absolutely need some better chronology.
F9: I can't easily find any good coverage for boss of the year [4], though the original ref was on archive[5].
ECSA does have coverage [6] (and an awful WP-article), but I can't easily see that we should consider it the same as the old award[7]. The "simple" solution is an smh article saying "Look at this award he got!"
Huh. I'm confused, I'm not sure F7 is actually backed up by the source, based on what you quoted. I'll hold off on that one. I think I've now incorporated all the other changes I okayed above. Wikignome Wintergreentalk 16:00, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Right, don't wait a long time for approval, people can be slow to react. Perhaps it's possible to dig out some stuff from the Icon book. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:10, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying the article is perfect, but it does look better. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:00, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Much better! It would be nice to have a photo, but that would probably entail even more bureaucracy, which I'm sure Dr. Garrett is fed up with at this point. ;) I tried reading the Icon book, but alas, parsing all that corporatese for relevant bits I could quote or paraphrase defeated me. Wikignome Wintergreentalk 17:19, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a fun text, I tried too. On image... Actually, hang on. The government sometimes giveth. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:59, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And they did! Image from The State of Queensland website. @BlackTea, via our sistersite Commons "we" can use images from websites clearly marked with the magic word or previously unpublished images the uploader took themself with their own camera. So if you want, you can take a selfie, or someone standing close to you can take a pic, and then the photographer can upload it starting here. Not necessary if you think the current one is good enough.
I can't find a Vulcan hand salute emoji at WP:EMOTICON! When will this terrible miscarriage of justice be rectified??! Wikignome Wintergreentalk 18:30, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You have certainly put in a lot of work here between you, WW and GGS, Including finding, and using, the happy snap! Thank you.
I will seek to dig out a couple of hopefully useful additional sources plus some suggestions for your consideration so will get back to you (here) in due course.
And my educational journey has certainly continued apace with your comprehensive and most informative ‘Shakespeare and Star Trek’ piece, GGS. It seems a shame that you can’t be appropriately recognised upfront for this article! But perhaps you can (have?) use your material for a stand-alone authored article? But no doubt you might then drop into the WP COI/Copyright abyss!!!!
That abyss is a dread place indeed. There be dragons. And even worse - lawyers. Wikignome Wintergreentalk 00:33, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Dropping this here potentially for future use: A piece by Wilson da Silva, originally published in Newton Magazine in 2001. It's partially an interview, but it still looks reasonably independent and there's lots of good info. Wikignome Wintergreentalk 04:11, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Per author it looks useful (though I sense a disturbance in the force). Used it, named ref "da Silva". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The basic rule is that you can use WP-text anyway you want, even commercially, as long as you say you're doing that. For example, Museum of Modern Art copies WP extensively at their website (enter Citogenesis...). I guess it saves them money and work. And thanks to The State of Queensland, I can put that picture of you on t-shirts and sell them, if I want to.
Noting also that WP has no control over the Google knowledge panel, that is a Frankenstein's Monster created by Google algorithms. So, if people wants you to talk about The Flash, it's probably not WP:s fault. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Team!...Oops! A re-post, as just buried this higher up ... early morning finger trouble :-(
Concluding whimsy verses just posted at BlackTea, for 'poetic' (hmmm...) continuity and (hopefully) your amusement... — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlackTea (talk • contribs) 23:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken care of the misplaced post. Earned my gnome points for the day. Wikignome Wintergreentalk 00:34, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikignome Wintergreentalk 14:39, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikignome Wintergreentalk 00:34, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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