Talk:Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse). There's also a consensus to move Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine back to Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (1874–1878) and redirect the old page to this title. Jenks24 (talk) 09:21, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse and by Rhine) → Marie of Hesse and by Rhine – This proposed title is in line with WP:CONSORTS, and it's also unambiguous. The present title is bad because it uses parenthesis to give alternate name of the subject, but parenthesis should be used for WP:parenthetical disambiguation instead. Vanjagenije (talk) 13:30, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. There is another person of the same name: Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

  Yes, you are right, though I wonder why Marie of Hesse and by Rhine redirects to this article. Anyway, my proposed title is maybe not the best solution, but I still to whink the article should be moved to some new title. The current title with alternate name in the parenthesis is against naming conventions. Do you have some better option? Maybe we should use Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (1824-1880), like we use in many other cases (like Princess Elisabeth of Hesse and by Rhine (1864–1918) or Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine (1933–1937))? Vanjagenije (talk) 16:36, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

  I think the child Marie should be moved back to Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (1874–1878) because I don't see that she is the primary topic for the name. It doesn't make sense to have the empress from Marie of Hesse and by Rhine and the child from Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine. This is like my argument at Talk:Prince Henrik of Denmark (born 2009)#Requested move 28 February 2017: I don't see why the primary term should lead the reader to a child leaving the more notable adult's article disambiguated.

  Exactly. This is why we have primary redirects, which is by far the most misunderstood part of disambiguation. Jut because an article title isn't used for its primary topic, that doesn't make the title available as the title for another article, as many seem to assume. If there's a primary topic but the article on that topic has another, better name, then the term redirects to that article. Andrewa (talk) 17:20, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

  You say that the title of the empress's article is against naming conventions but it fits with the sixth point at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#Consorts of sovereigns, which says Russian tsarinas can or should be disambiguated with the maiden name. While I agree it seems rather long (why not just 'Marie of Hesse'? 'and by Rhine' is superfluous surely?), I don't see much room for trimming. We're still going to have to use dates or 'consort of Alexander II' or similar to disambiguate. The real question is what is the most useful disambiguator, i.e. what is it about her that will allow the reader to most quickly determine that they are at the right article? Currently, I still favour the maiden name (shortened to 'Marie of Hesse') as I think people are more likely to know that than the dates and it is shorter than 'consort of Alexander II'. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:27, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support alternative Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse). Should we relist to make this clear? I think we have consensus above for this, but would welcome another opinion. I also note that this completes a full circle of moves, beginning 22:13, 2 April 2014‎ Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk | contribs | block)‎ . . (68 bytes) (+68)‎ . . (Rms125a@hotmail.com moved page Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse) to Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (). Andrewa (talk) 22:25, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
• Support alternative The shorter version would be consistent with Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse). Celia Homeford (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.