Talk:Seymour Hersh
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Deleting weasel wording
I have removed this content [1] because it implies some sort of fault in the work was behind the rejection. No such explanation, or indeed any explanation, has been offered by the two publications [2] - so such a thing cannot be implied. Moreover, what sources that do exist give alternative reasons, including reasons that have nothing directly to do with the article's content, see [3] and [4] and others. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:48, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
Glaring omission
The "family jewels" article that led to the creation of the Church Committee (currently tucked away in the bibliography and the See Also section) is extremely important, and deserves some detail in the selected stories category. I know the obvious answer here, as with so many other talk page complaints, is "so do it yourself", but a more experienced editor could do an infinitely better job than I could. On the off chance that someone actually reads this: any thoughts? -165.234.252.11 (talk) 20:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Proposed new section: Marginalized by Mainstream Media
Or some other suitable title
see this article from Jonathan Cook Humanengr (talk) 01:28, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- No longer proposed, but created, although the original publication of the article is on a self-published blog. Although it was cited to a reprint on Counterpunch website. I deleted it, however, because it is by a journalist without much of a mainstream reputation and Counterpunch is a contentious source. Hersh is now more likely to be dismissed or criticised in sources we can quote, despite his status decades ago. Philip Cross (talk) 11:54, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- Re "it is by a journalist without much of a mainstream reputation": Jonathan Cook is a winner of the Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism, given for "reporting that … exposes establishment conduct and its propaganda, or 'official drive', as Martha called it."
- I have followed Cook for several years, and he has not been published by the most reputable outlets in the West for some years. As he has an anti-mainstream media fixation, this may be deliberate or it may not, but that does not mean we have to include his comments. The disgraced Johann Hari won the Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism in 2010, the year before Cook gained the related 'Special Award for Journalism' with Julian Assange gaining the main award. So the award is both fallible and unconventional, and thus not a demonstration of Cook's credibility. Your use of the term "Martha" suggests you have a conflict of interest. Philip Cross (talk) 13:21, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- My use of term 'Martha' was part of a quote from the Wikipedia page. You apparently misread. So withdraw your 'suggestion'.Again, do you have any factual objection to the content? 13:27, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- OK, my mistake. But an opinion is not a fact; the New Yorker and London Review of Books may have had good reasons for declining to publish Hersh's work. Of course, it is not completely up to me what is included or deleted, but ake this to a discussion page if you feel so strongly that Cook's article should be cited. Philip Cross (talk) 13:58, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- Perhaps Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Philip Cross (talk) 14:03, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
My Lai
I've removedthis entire paragraph from the My Lai section, for reasons which I will explain below:
- Hersh had been directed to the Calley court-martial by Geoffrey Cowan of The Village Voice and later remarked, "Yeah, part of me said, 'Fame! Fortune! Glory!' The other part was very pragmatic [in thinking] about, 'How are you going to prove this?'"[1] A critical attitude to Hersh perceives him as the mere instrument by which the My Lai massacre became public knowledge and a part of the machine with which the army built its case against a scape-goat. According to this view, Hersh served in this way to shape the memory the military wanted—an exceptional atrocity, an anomaly, that was dealt with.[2][3][4]
My reasons for removal are as follows:
- The contributor who created this paragraph is a User:Sayerslle, who has been permanently banned from Wikipedia for sock puppetry and tendentious editing related to the Ghouta chemical attack in Syria. He added the paragraph on April 13, 2014, and no one seems to have seriously examined it since. The background of the contributor would not be worth noting if the paragraph in question was reasonable and reliable, but it is not.
- Most of this paragraph is just a poorly-worded expression of an opinion attributed to "a critical attitude to Hersh," which I believe is merely user Sayerslle's way of smuggling in his own opinion of Hersh. This "critical attitude" belittles Hersh as "the mere instrument by which the My Lai massacre became public knowledge" and as part of a U.S. military propaganda "machine." I'm sure there are many opinions of Hersh and his work, and this "critical attitude" may be one of them, but it is certainly not the most prevalent opinion about his My Lai reporting. There is no reason to mention it in this article unless we want to provide a larger compendium of opinions about his reporting. Moreover, the citations provided do not provide much evidence even for the existence of this "critical attitude." The only source cited that expresses an attitude along these lines is an obscure blog named "Linux Beach" written by someone named Clay Claiborne, a self-proclaimed "revolutionary Marxist." One of the other sources cited in the paragraph is a Youtube video that has been taken down so it is no longer available, and the other cited sources don't make anything resembling that appraisal of Hersh's reporting.
- There are a couple of factually accurate statements in the opening sentence of this paragraph which I considered including but decided were better left out. Geoffrey Cowan was indeed the source of the tip that led Hersh to his story, and the On The Media transcript does quote Hersh saying that when he first got the tip, "part of me" was thinking about "Fame! Fortune! Glory!" However, these details about the origins of the My Lai story are not terribly important and therefore don't belong in an encyclopedia article. Hersh's statement about "fame and glory" sounds to me like an offhand, slightly self-deprecating appraisal of his internal mental processes, and in any case this was only part of his motivation for reporting on My Lai. If the article is going to seriously examine his motivations, it would also have to explain why he persisted in pursuing the story at considerable personal effort and expense even after it had been turned down for publication by major media outlets.
-- Sheldon Rampton (talk) 13:44, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Sheldon Rampton: Your reasoning is good and I support your edit. The first source would likely not be allowed per WP:COPYVIOEL and the third source can be rejected per WP:BLOGS. The second source - the transcript - could possibly be preserved in the EL section; however, I agree with you that it was cherry-picked. The fourth source is reliable but it only states that he broke the story. -Location (talk) 15:14, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
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Syrian civil war
I removed a paragraph which paraphrased Hersh's claims on Erdogan's support for al-Nusra and ISIS without clarifying them to be purely his opinion. It cited an article from MintPress News (an openly pro-Assad source) to show that Erdogan let jihadis into Syria. This sounds like partisan, agenda-driven writing. I'll go through the entire article in more detail to make it more objective; if you have issue with me removing the paragraph for now, you can refer to it here. I'll be following the page. Ignostic199 (talk) 14:49, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- I appreciate your interest in improving Hersh's article, there is plenty of room for that. I'm not protesting your first removal, just raising a couple of general and a couple of specific points. Sourcing and attribution is key to improving the article. Including POV material, especially Hersh's, is fine and actually necessary in many instances. Just get the best source available and make clear who is making the claim. As for the comment above, Erdogan has supported al-Nusra in the past, and Turkey's border was wide open to foreign jihadis to enter Syria. That's fact, not an opinion. There are good independent, reliable sources for that. Using MintPress News is controversial, and a substitute should be found if available. But if not, or in situations of providing POV claims and attribution, it is usable. Smearing it as openly pro-Assad does not help. It might favor Assad over the rebels, but that does not mean it is banned from use as a source. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 16:43, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for the comment. I understand the need to improve the article according to those guidelines. Will be looking through it in detail soon and will use your advice Ignostic199 (talk) 15:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Interviews with My Lai Veterans
I just removed this from the My Lai section: A movie called Interviews with My Lai Veterans won an Oscar in 1971 for Best Documentary (Short Subject).[1]
As far as I can see, it has nothing to do with Hersh. If I'm wrong, please restore it! BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:13, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
South Dakota
Here's the current sentence
"He later became a correspondent for United Press International in South Dakota"
I think the article should specify that it was in Pierre, the capital of South Dakota---he was covering the legislature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.127.187.130 (talk) 17:17, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Confused paragraph
The fourth paragraph of the Syrian civil war section is a big mess. I've explained the problem here.
I also notice that none of the references in the first paragraph mention Hersh. That seems strange for a BLP. SashiRolls t · c 20:15, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Snooganssnoogans:: thank you for fixing part of your mistake, but the sources in your topic sentence also refer to bin Laden. Note the publication date in particular of the second article which predates the 2017 article by two years. I still don't understand how you could have made this mistake. SashiRolls t · c 21:01, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Controversy/criticism section
I have placed a tag on this section:
- Some of these are assessments of Hersh's work, some are criticisms and some are Hersh's comments on events. Lumping them under this heading is inappropriate. It would be better to include these in a chronological description of Hersh's work. Items that provide a general assessment can be placed in an Assessment section.
- Where are the positive assessments of Hersh's work? Why is he such a highly decorated journalist?
Burrobert (talk) 15:15, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Chicago Locations
The article says the Hersh family dry-cleaning shop was in the Austin neighborhood. Both Hersh’s own memoir (“Reporter: A Memoir”) and a nostalgic city tour with a Chicago Tribune reporter (“The Muckraker,” June 25, 2004) place the shop on the South Side, specifically at 4507 S. Indiana Ave. 2600:1702:4610:3470:5CCB:9182:7E4A:D321 (talk) 04:42, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
Pushing the slander to front and centre. Labelling Hersh a Conspiracy Theorist is inaccurate.
This article towards the end, where current articles written by Hersh are reported, are skewing towards a blatant bias that seems to be perpetuated by parties who have financial or political gain to suppress information. Hersh is a highly awarded journalist, renown for uncovering government ops to propagate social support for things such as war. The label "conspiracy" needs to be removed to maintain impartiality. 124.148.174.167 (talk) 02:33, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- The claim is contained in reliable sources so cannot be ignored. Perhaps we should include Sy's response - "I don't care". Burrobert (talk) 04:13, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Sure, the Pulitzer prize winning journalist who broke the story of the My Lai massacre and has never had to retract a single story is a "Conspiracy Theorist" (according to some (Redacted) vlogger at Vox.) 184.170.114.42 (talk) 05:21, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
I would have to agree. Seymour Hersh has a long history of excellent investigative journalism and it doesn't make sense to label him a conspiracy theorist on the basis of his current investigation, especially when the term is meant to bring to mind someone who makes entirely baseless claims. He might have cited an anonymous source, but sources like the Washington Post and the BBC do the same thing all the time and are still considered reliable by Wikipedia's standards (and they are). We should hold off until the story is proven fabricated if it is. Special:Contributions/TheSands-12 08:02, 9 February 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheSands-12 (talk • contribs)
- I have redacted part of 184's comment above per WP:BLP. While it's fine to challenge a source, this should be done based on evidence problems with the sources such as whether the source has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. It should not be based on random insults. Nil Einne (talk) 09:57, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- We should only label people, particularly with controversial labels like "conspiracy theorist", with labels that are
widely used by reliable sources
. We call for instance Alex Jones a conspiracy theorist because he's consistently labeled like that in reliable sources, but we don't label everyone who's ever said "Epstein didn't kill himself" a conspiracy theorist even though they are promoting a conspiracy theory. Zero of the two sources presented (the Vox article and the opinion piece in The New Republic) label Hersh with the term, so we can't either. If reliable sources widely/consistently call Hersh's view on the death of bin Laden as a "conspiracy theory", then we can say that—though I'll note not even that has been argued—but that is a significantly lower bar than labeling Hersh (the entire person) as a conspiracy theorist. Endwise (talk) 10:41, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- The label is perjorative and biased. It's another example of how Wikipedia is unreliable on anything or anyone controversial. 2605:59C8:47E:4210:C5D3:3E09:47E:991E (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:40, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- We have whole academic articles about Hersh as conspiracy theorist, see Culloty 2021 "Evaluating conspiracy claims as public sphere communication" [5]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:17, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
widely used
is the standard, not justused
. How wide is the use of that label for Hersh? (That's not a rhetorical question, I don't know the answer, but I think the answer will decide the issue.) Levivich (talk) 17:14, 11 February 2023 (UTC)- Just a note that the article does not currently call Hersh a conspiracy theorist and there is no open proposal to do so. IP wants to cut what we do have which doesn't say that. On the question that's actuary being asked describing Hersh's work as conspiratorial, questionable, or pushing conspiracy theories is pretty much universal for the most recent sources, for example Snopes from yesterday "His later work, however, has been controversial and widely panned by journalists for promoting conspiratorial claims that hinge on dubious anonymous sources or speculation." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:18, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- The only uses of the C word in the current article are in the title of a book and a quote "Hersh has appeared increasingly to have gone off the rails. His stories, often alleging vast and shadowy conspiracies, have made startling — and often internally inconsistent — accusations, based on little or no proof beyond a handful of anonymous 'officials'." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:21, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I did notice that. I guess if someone at some point wants to add the label "conspiracy theorist", they can make the case that it's "widely used" at that time? Levivich (talk) 17:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- If only because these are WP:RS which have a clear policy of not making ad hominems attacks, like we do they try to critique the work not the individual. We probably should have something in WikiVoice about his more recent publishing being less reliable though. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I did notice that. I guess if someone at some point wants to add the label "conspiracy theorist", they can make the case that it's "widely used" at that time? Levivich (talk) 17:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
It is accurate to call him a conspiracytheorist, since that's what he's been doing for the past 15 years: he spreads accusations that are untrue. Just because someone won awards in their youth, does not make them infallible and absolutely not beyond critism. Whatever you might personally believe should be left out of this factual Wiki; journalists are held to journalist standards. Spreading disinformation and hoaxes are not journalism. There is no such thing as a "fringe" journalist. Either you report the truth or you report fake news. Hersh hasn't been a journalist in decades. Every source for his wild claims he hás revealed so far has been other conspiracytheorists (like Scott Ritter). Don't let this Wikipedia be tainted by his fellow conspiracytheorists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.131.169.143 (talk) 15:32, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- "Hersh hasn't been a journalist in decades"? If the "s" in "decades" means two or more of them, then you're claiming that Hersh ceased to be a journalist no later than February 2003, more than a year prior to his widely heralded coverage of the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture scandal for the New Yorker. Even the people most dedicated to smearing Hersh's recent journalism don't usually set the timeline this aggressively! 75.100.42.217 (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Generally sources note that piece as his last good work, Snopes for example "Hersh's most notable work has exposed government and military abusers and cover-ups, and his past work has revealed U.S. military abuse. He uncovered the U.S. military's role in the My Lai Massacre — work that won him a Pulitzer Prize in 1970. He described the U.S.'s role in a covert bombing campaign in Cambodia. He reported on the U.S. military's mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib during the Iraq War. His later work, however, has been controversial and widely panned by journalists for promoting conspiratorial claims that hinge on dubious anonymous sources or speculation. " Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:03, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- If the 4/30/04 New Yorker article on Abu Ghraib is his last good work, and he ceased to be a journalist on 5/1/04, then the period during which he hasn't been a journalist has been roughly 18 years and 9 months. Aside from the slightly tongue-in-cheek semantic point about "decades," the more serious point here is that the sources who've dismissed his recent work as fringe conspiracy theorism are often the same ones (if not literally the same people, then people at the same outlets and institutions) who were similarly dismissive toward his earlier "good" work at the time it was originally published. One interpretation might be that Hersh's work over time transformed from good serious investigative journalism to bad unserious conspiracy theorism; another might be that there was no transformation, and those denouncing Hersh's work today are wrong in similar ways and for similar reasons as those who previously denounced it during the 1970s-2000s. 75.100.42.217 (talk) 17:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- The difference is that we have WP:RS that say "Hersh's work over time transformed from good serious investigative journalism to bad unserious conspiracy theorism," (I assume you're being a bit hyperbolic) we don't have any that say there wasn't a transformation or that those denouncing Hersh's work today are wrong in similar ways and for similar reasons as those who previously denounced it during the 1970s-2000s. You would need to present a reliable source which said that in order to make that argument. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Here's the Yale historian and 2020 Pulitzer winner Greg Grandin making more or less exactly that point in The Nation, during the fallout from Hersh's 2015 reporting on the bin Laden raid: There’s a standard boiler plate now when it comes to going after Hersh[...]: establish Hersh’s “legendary” status [...]; invoke his reporting in My Lai and Abu Ghraib; then say that a number of Hersh’s recent stories [...] have been “unsubstantiated” [...]; question Hersh’s sources; and then, finally, suggest that Hersh has gone “off the rails” to embrace “conspiracy theories.” (Ellipses to shorten the quote by omitting references to the specific examples under discussion; you can read the second paragraph of the linked article to see that I'm not distorting Grandin's point by omission.) Obviously any tinfoil-hatted conspiracy nut can claim to be telling dangerous truths that the mainstream political/media establishment doesn't want people to know about, but it certainly helps Hersh's case that even those who dismiss his work today still acknowledge that he has a long and venerable track record of doing precisely that. 75.100.42.217 (talk) 01:32, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- The difference is that we have WP:RS that say "Hersh's work over time transformed from good serious investigative journalism to bad unserious conspiracy theorism," (I assume you're being a bit hyperbolic) we don't have any that say there wasn't a transformation or that those denouncing Hersh's work today are wrong in similar ways and for similar reasons as those who previously denounced it during the 1970s-2000s. You would need to present a reliable source which said that in order to make that argument. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- If the 4/30/04 New Yorker article on Abu Ghraib is his last good work, and he ceased to be a journalist on 5/1/04, then the period during which he hasn't been a journalist has been roughly 18 years and 9 months. Aside from the slightly tongue-in-cheek semantic point about "decades," the more serious point here is that the sources who've dismissed his recent work as fringe conspiracy theorism are often the same ones (if not literally the same people, then people at the same outlets and institutions) who were similarly dismissive toward his earlier "good" work at the time it was originally published. One interpretation might be that Hersh's work over time transformed from good serious investigative journalism to bad unserious conspiracy theorism; another might be that there was no transformation, and those denouncing Hersh's work today are wrong in similar ways and for similar reasons as those who previously denounced it during the 1970s-2000s. 75.100.42.217 (talk) 17:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Generally sources note that piece as his last good work, Snopes for example "Hersh's most notable work has exposed government and military abusers and cover-ups, and his past work has revealed U.S. military abuse. He uncovered the U.S. military's role in the My Lai Massacre — work that won him a Pulitzer Prize in 1970. He described the U.S.'s role in a covert bombing campaign in Cambodia. He reported on the U.S. military's mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib during the Iraq War. His later work, however, has been controversial and widely panned by journalists for promoting conspiratorial claims that hinge on dubious anonymous sources or speculation. " Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:03, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
external link
personal pagehttps://seymourhersh.substack.com/
Use of the substack article
@Spudst3r: if you finish reading you would have noticed that " Such material may be used as a source only if: it is not unduly self-serving; it does not involve claims about third parties; it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; and the article is not based primarily on such sources."
Just going down the list its unduly self serving, it involves claims about third parties, and it involves claims about events not directly related to the subject. Thats three strikes and you only need one strike to be out in this game. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:09, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see how this article is unduly self-serving in any way? There is a discussion to be had more broadly on Wikipedia I guess, about the veracity of whether substack is a reliable source with so many respected journalists now "self-publishing" to it . In Hersh's case, with a solid track record of truthfully breaking stories from anonymous sources, but also stories where others doubt the reporting. In a BLP article about a respected author, I lean towards respecting the citation of content the author makes.
- I'm trying to figure out what you are trying to achieve by removing the citation to Hersh's article on his own page here?. It's clearly a prominent development in the person's life, the content at hand here is being treated as notable by multiple national governments, and we are making a good faith effort at describing what he said on his wikipedia page. The reader is best served by having a link to the reporting Hersh published. Spudst3r (talk) 18:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- You don't have any other choice in a BLP besides to abide by WP:RS... And even if you think its not unduly self-serving it definitely involves claims about third parties and events which Hersh is not directly related to, again failing even one of those five criteria means it can't be used. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:06, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- In regards to Substack's status as an RS, I'd think it would be in the same category as a post to Twitter or Facebook; even if the person making the post was a reporter for an RS, their social media posts wouldn't be RS, since there's no editorial/vetting process around them. So, I can see the concerns around directly citing the article here. One option would be to not directly cite the article here, but rather to add his personal/Substack site (seymourhersh.substack.com) to the infobox. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 18:44, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- That category is called SPS and we can't use SPS which make any claims about third parties or events which are not directly related to the author (such as the pipeline sabotage). If it was Hersh making claims about Hersh we could use it, but it isn't. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:06, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'd agree, except in this case, we wouldn't be using the substack post as a claim for the veracity of the statements made, but rather just to show that he made the claims. That said, if we can reasonably describe the claims he's making without citing the substack post directly, that would be better. I don't have access to The Times, so I don't know how much of the description of what he wrote occurred that's in the article here is in that story. If that Times story says "Hersh says that [everything in the wiki article paragraph]," then we don't need to link to the substack post. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 19:24, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- It can't be used for that if those claims are about third parties or events which are not directly related to the author. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:28, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'd agree, except in this case, we wouldn't be using the substack post as a claim for the veracity of the statements made, but rather just to show that he made the claims. That said, if we can reasonably describe the claims he's making without citing the substack post directly, that would be better. I don't have access to The Times, so I don't know how much of the description of what he wrote occurred that's in the article here is in that story. If that Times story says "Hersh says that [everything in the wiki article paragraph]," then we don't need to link to the substack post. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 19:24, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- That category is called SPS and we can't use SPS which make any claims about third parties or events which are not directly related to the author (such as the pipeline sabotage). If it was Hersh making claims about Hersh we could use it, but it isn't. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:06, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- At RSN: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Seymour Hersh. Per WP:ONUS, it should stay out until/unless there is consensus to include. Levivich (talk) 20:17, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
I have an issue with the following: "Hersh wrote that NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg had been cooperating with US intelligence services since the Vietnam war and has been cleared ever since, and that this was part of the reason why the U.S. involved Norway in the operation.[60] At the time the Vietnam war ended, Jens Stoltenberg was 16 years old and that, in his teens and early twenties, Stoltenberg participated in demonstrations against the U.S. and the Vietnam war and advocated for Norway leaving NATO.[60]" Hersh writes, " He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War." Hersh does not say that Stoltenberg supported or opposed the US war in Vietnam, and "since" can mean after, not during the war. "since the Vietnam War" is ambiguous, not specific, and so I would consider removing this critique.Marcywinograd (talk) 04:10, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- That you disagree with a WP:RS is not a valid reason to remove it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:13, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with the source that says Stoltenberg opposed the Vietnam War. Let's say he did, that reliable sources say he opposed it. So what? What does that have to do with him cooperating with the US intelligence community since (could mean after) the Vietnam War. Nothing. It has nothing to do with it--it's cherry picking.Marcywinograd (talk) 04:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think it means after, in context its a very clear claim. It's a claim that turns out to be false as many of Hersh's do but it isn't ambiguous. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:32, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Oxford Dictionary: since/sins/
Learn to pronounce
prepositionpreposition: sincein the intervening period between (the time mentioned) and the time under consideration, typically the present."she hasn't spoken to him since last year"
The Oxford Dictionary is a reliable source for definitions, and according to this dictionary, since does not mean during--it means in the "intervening period" and that would be after the Vietnam War ended to now. This section should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcywinograd (talk • contribs)
- To my reading, "has been cooperating with US intelligence services since the Vietnam war" means the cooperation began during the Vietnam war and continued thereafter, to the present. I just checked Meriam-Webster, Cambridge, and Collins, and they all use "from X until now", and I understand "from" to be inclusive of the starting point. To go with Oxford's example, if one says "she's been talking to him since last year", it means she talked to him last year. "She's been talking to him since 2010" means she talked to him in 2010, not starting in 2011. So, "he's been cooperating since the Vietnam war" means he was cooperating during the Vietnam war, not just after it. Levivich (talk) 04:48, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
NPOV and recentism tags
Watching this article develop over the past week, I have some concerns about the direction it's headed that I'd like to raise for discussion. In sum, I've added NPOV and recentism tags:
- The section about Nord Stream (the most recent report) is 3x longer than the one about My Lai and 2x longer than Abu Ghraib. This is not proportional, it's WP:RECENTISM. How long/short each section should be should be in proportion to its coverage in RS, making proper adjustments to fight against RECENTISM.
- The section about bin Laden is even longer
- There shouldn't be a "Controversies and criticisms" section at all, for the reasons stated in the essay WP:CSECTION. Instead, his career and his reports should all be listed chronologically. Both negative and positive reactions about his reports should be included in each section, in proportion to their coverage in RS.
- I've noticed that positive things said by others about Hersh have been removed, but negative things said by others about Hersh keep getting added. I'm not sure how we strike the appropriate balance, but we need some method for determining when we include "so-and-so said such-and-such about Hersh" and when we exclude it.
I just want to note that the problems I see isn't due to any one edit or any one editor; it's the cumulation of different people adding and removing different things (all in good faith), but I think we need to have a larger discussion about NPOV and RECENTISM in this article. Is it just me? Levivich (talk) 16:33, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- IMO the issue is that this article was horribly unbalanced prior to Nordstream and the attention from that is uncovering all these old issues. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:34, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I for one never looked at this article before a few days ago. I guess it wasn't just me, because I see several editors have been improving the article and already some of the things I've raised are fixed. Thank you to everyone! (I am enjoying my newfound power, "Summon Editors".) Anyway, anyone working on this should please feel free to remove the tags I placed whenever they think best. Thanks again, Levivich (talk) 02:33, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
Nordstream 2 added to Lead
In February 2023, Hersh reported that the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines had been carried out by the US Navy, the CIA, and the Norwegian Navy, under the direct order of President Biden. Hersh's report relied on an anonymous source who stated that, in June 2022, US Navy divers placed explosive C4 charges on the pipelines at strategic locations selected by the Norwegians. The source said that charges were placed under the cover of a multi-nation wargame simulation known as BALTOPS 22, and remotely detonated three months later by a signal from a sonar buoy dropped by a Norwegian P-8 surveillance plane.[1][2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlyforwikiapps (talk • contribs)