Talk:Spiru Haret University

The University Spiru Haret received accreditation from The National Council of Academic Evaluation in Romania. It seems that the statement that its a "mill" is just someone’s opinion and not fact a simple check with the Romani government website shows they are legit. I think it needs an edit. They are clearly not a mill and it does not seem fair to have them listed as one. Just because not all of there programs are accredited does not mean the whole school is not, which it is. --Super (talk) 04:37, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I deleted the section on Romania. It had no information about rules and laws or problems with mills in Romania,It's only topic was on Spiru Haret as a mill, which it is not. They have goverment approval to operate under the ministry of education. The article section smelled badly of a former student with an axe to grind. Anyone who has a problem with my edit just let me know. I would be happy to talk about and we can digg some cites up!--Super (talk) 17:18, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I restored the material for now, rewriting it to omit speculation, opinion, and inflammatory words. What do the sources say? ~Amatulić (talk) 18:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Here is a link to look at on the university[[1]] and here is a link to the Ministry of Education [2] or (edu.ro) they say they are full accredited......I edited the Spiru Haret page itself but my edit keeps getting undone :( --Super (talk) 20:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

We need to clear their name, in no way is this school a mill.--Super (talk) 20:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I can't open the PDF that you linked to, Supercopone. The most recent page about Spiru Haret that I found on the Romanian government website is http://www.edu.ro/index.php/pressrel/12679 . I can't read Romanian, and the machine translation of that page is not fully comprehensible, but it does not contradict the article. It says:

Legislative measures on entry into the legality of Spiru Haret University, 20.08.2009

The Official Gazette no. 581/20 August 2009, was published the Government Ordinance on law students enrolled in distance learning forms or part-time continuing studies curriculum license to operate provisionally approved or accredited. According to this document, since the effective date of this ordinance, Spiru Haret University Bucharest, established by Law 443/2002, cease schooling for all majors / curricula / provisionally authorized / accredited form of learningţdistance loverţA.

In the first semester of the academic year 2009-2010, Spiru Haret University initiate procedures to ensure the leadership of Rector confirmed by order of the Minister, under the law. Also, Spiru Haret University will be particularly monitored over 3 years in order to ensure legal compliance to specific quality standards, according to a methodology approved by order of the Minister of Education Research and Innovation. During monitoring, institution of higher education above hold examinations for a license under a methodology approved by order of the minister of education, research and innovation.

Spiru Haret University graduates specialization of law, with a duration of 3 years and 180 officers are entitled to complete their studies in 4 years and 240 credits in specialization / programs accredited law license.

Students cycle's degree, I enrolled in the 2005-2008 period to specialization / study programs, organized form of distance education have the right to continue studies in specialization / study programs to operate provisionally approved or accredited according to procedures approved by order of the minister of education, research and innovation. For this right university course and students receive the license, I enrolled in the 2005-2008 period to specialization / study programs organized in the form of low frequency. All graduates who support and promote the licensing examination under this ordinance shall be recognized awarded by the Ministry of Education, Research and Youth.

However, the Government meeting of Wednesday, August 19, approved a decision to add the GD no. 749/2009 for approval of classification areas, structures of higher education institutions and specialized / Bachelor's degree programs accredited or certified to operate temporarily. This document contains specializations and curricula provisionally accredited or certified to operate at Spiru Haret University (only forms of education by day and low frequency).

--Orlady (talk) 21:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok that looks good to me, but the school is not a mill. They still are still accredited as of now. They are still listed as being accredited in what you c&p in talk.

"However, the Government meeting of Wednesday, August 19, approved a decision to add the GD no. 749/2009 for approval of classification areas, structures of higher education institutions and specialized / Bachelor's degree programs accredited or certified to operate temporarily. This document contains specializations and curricula provisionally accredited or certified to operate at Spiru Haret University"

So by this, they are good to go! On a side note, even if a school does not have accreditation, does not mean they are a mill. Every College or University starts out without accreditation; it is a two to four year process. I still think it is wrong to keep them listed as this school does have accreditation as of now. By the way the article in question is about distance learning and not the brick and morter locations. But as of now the DL programs are still accredited as well, according to what you posted. --Super (talk) 05:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

About Spiru Haret: it got a three year ban from holding diploma exams. I have processed this information in the main article. According to the Romanian government, Spiru Haret placed itself outside of the accreditation process (according to Spiru Haret, the goverment misunderstood a court's sentence). This means that some faculties could still be accredited/authorized if such accreditation/authorization did not expire, but makes the accreditation authorities unable to evaluate the education given at this university. About Romanian law: a faculty/curriculum could still be legal study without accreditation, in this case having to be temporarily authorized. A temporary authorization is lower than accreditation, and does not entitle to holding diploma exams. In this case students study at the authorized faculty and have their diploma exams at an accredited faculty (at another university). I see that on edu.ro Spiru Haret is listed as accredited university, but it does not say which of its faculties/curricula are accredited, for how long and does not say if it may organize diploma exams. The info provided on the website of Spiru Haret is unreliable, according to the newspaper quoted in the main article and to the government's own Agency for quality assurance for higher education (ARACIS), e.g. it invokes a law which has been replaced by a new law, the old law being now inapplicable. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:31, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Here are some documents about Spiru Haret:

• list of its accredited/authorized faculties/specializations, mentioning the year of most recent accreditation/authorization and related problems
• list of its illegal distance learning locations
• news about lack of recognition of its 2009 license diplomas Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:31, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I watched the video-chat with the Romanian Minister of Education, available at http://stirileprotv.ro/programe-inregistrate/videochat/ecaterina-andronescu-vine-azi-la-videochat-stirileprotv-ro-de-la-ora-21-00.html . The relevant points are:

• Spiru Haret University has been accredited (as university) by law in 2002. The law requires periodical evaluation of accredited universities, taking place every 5 years. This means that Spiru Haret should have been evaluated in 2007, but this did not happen. It follows that since 2007 Spiru Haret lacks legal accreditation (as a whole).
• The Romanian Department of Education is not entitled to recognize diplomas from "illegal" studies, i.e. studies which were neither temporary authorized nor accredited. As such, students got valid diplomas only if their study was temporary authorized or accredited. E.g. let's consider the law studies. According to the list mentioned above, full-time law studies were accredited in 2000 by CNEAA, and part-time law studies were authorized in 2003 (i.e. considering their most recent authorization/accreditation). This means that a full-time student who began his/her law study in 2000 and got his/her license diploma in due time (i.e. without delaying his/her study progress) has a legally recognized license diploma, since he/she followed a legally recognized study. If he/she started such study in 2005, he/she cannot get a legally recognized diploma, unless he/she transfers himself/herself at an authorized/accredited law study from another university and succeeds at a license exam at an accredited faculty.
• The Spiru Haret University removed itself by a court's decision from the Government Decisions of 2007 and 2008 listing accredited/authorized study programs from Romania. This means that it canceled all its recognitions granted by such Government Decisions. (Don't ask me why did they want to do this!!!) This means that students who began their studies in 2007 and 2008 at this university follow studies which are not legally recognized. The Romanian Department of Education understood that this is the viewpoint of the university and decided to follow the court's decision and not include the Spiru Haret curricula in the Government Decision which lists accredited/authorized curricula (Annex 3 of the Government Decision no. 749 of June 24, 2009). This means that Spiru Haret students who began their studies in 2007, 2008 and 2009 cannot get a legally recognized diploma. In 2009, the University got angry because every prospective student knew that in September 2009 he/she cannot begin an authorized/accredited at the Spiru Haret University. They complained the the Romanian government wants to steal their students (2/3 of all Romanian higher education students are enlisted at Spiru Haret). In the video-chat, the Romanian Minister of Education said that the Department of Education reached an agreement with the university and she promised that the government will taken an urgent decision listing the accredited/authorized Spiru Haret curricula. I did not check if such decision was adopted, but I will do so soon.
• The university said that it does not need ARACIS evaluation, authorization and accreditation, since they appealed to an European accreditation organization. The Minister said that she does not know which organization will perform accreditation at Spiru Haret, therefore she cannot know if it is a recognized European accreditation organization. She was still waiting for the letter of the university wherein the university discloses the name of the the accreditation organization. In any case, in order to be recognized by the Romanian state, studies have to be authorized/accredited according to Romanian law, i.e. by ARACIS.
• All Spiru Haret distance learning locations are illegal, except Bucharest. This means that only distance learning students enlisted in Bucharest follow recognized studies. This does not mean that all distance learning students from Bucharest follow recognized studies! I.e. the faculty still has to be accredited/authorized in order to follow recognized distance learning studies. Tgeorgescu (talk) 13:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I have found the documents promised by the minister: Urgent Ordinance no. 10/2009 (which basically says that Spiru Haret students/graduates from unaccredited/unauthorized studies are entitled to have an entrance exam and, if admitted to such studies, a license/diploma exam at accredited faculties from other universities) and Government Decision 943/2009. I have processed this information in the main article.

About the word "mill": see http://www.google.com/search?q=spiru+haret+fabrica+de+diplome

This query shows some articles from Romanian press calling Spiru Haret a diploma mill (literally translated: "diplomas factory"). Use http://translate.google.ro in order to translate such articles.

I have to correct the statement made above, i.e. not 2/3 but 1/3 of all Romanian higher education students are enlisted to Spiru Haret, according to http://www.zf.ro/eveniment/unul-din-trei-studenti-din-romania-invata-la-spiru-haret-fabrica-de-diplome-300-000-de-studenti-si-100-mil-euro-incasari-4634254/ Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:48, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok well it looks as though you have done your home work. But this still does not make the school a mill. Can a med student from the school can still become a M.D.? --Super (talk) 01:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

In the Romanian press there are many reports that the Spiru Haret University sells diplomas, that all the stuff they learn in classes is how to answer the multiple choice questions from the exams and I have seen myself sites where the answers to the multiple choice exams have been posted on the internet. So, in respect to the question of becoming a physician, Spiru Haret does not prepare physicians which work with humans, but only veterinary physicians. In general the Romanian medical schools do not grant an MD, but something comparable to a MSc, and such diplomas allow medical practice only after several years of supervised practice (training). Some physicians may study for a PhD in medical sciences, and these are the Romanian medical doctors. In respect to becoming a veterinary physician, the study has been acreditted in 2001, but no subsequent evaluation dossier was sent, therefore if a student began his/her veterinary medicine study in 2001 and had no study delays (i.e. finished in the nominal time) and got his/her license in time, then he/she is ready for starting supervised training as a veterinary physician. In he/she had the bad luck of beginning such study in 2004, he/she cannot become a veterinary physician, since he/she cannot get a valid license from the Spiru Haret University.

An open letter has been published by some of the foremost Romanian intellectuals, which urge Romanian politicians not to condone the practices of the Spiru Haret University, which such top intellectuals consider as a threat to the respectability of the Romanian education. It is available upon http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-esential-5993958-apel-intelectualilor-cazul-spiru-haret-luat-act-stupoare-incercarile-lui-mircea-geoana-musamaliza-scandalul-tentativa-lui-traian-basescu-vina-lupta-pentru-influenta-dintre-invatamantul-stat-cel-privat.htm and http://danutm.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/apelul-intelectualilor-in-cazul-spiru-haret/

In order to repeat myself, if you are in Romania and you collect enough people who are willing to attend lessons and call it entertainment or awareness-raising or esoteric teaching, there is no law against that. As soon as you call it "university study" you have to fulfill all obligations stated in Romanian laws, meaning that such studies have to be either temporarily authorized or accredited in order to be permitted. If you even print license diplomas for people who have followed such illegal studies (or, should I say, such no-studies) and apply upon such diplomas the stamp lent from the Romanian Department of Education, this is a criminal offense. Therefore, the Spiru Haret University has engaged in unlawful, criminal activities and this is what makes it a diploma mill. It even has enough balls in order to go to the Court of Appeal and temporarily remove itself from the application of the Government Decisions, taken in full conformity with Romanian laws. In the end, the law will prevail and the state of law will win over the criminals. So the criminals could only prolong the application of the law, but even if it comes later, the law won't get less harsh than before. And even if they prolonged their own torments in order to fool the gullible students who pay the 100 million Euro yearly profit of this non-profit organization, they will have to face the consequences of their own actions. If I make you follow classes and then promise you a legal license diploma, and I have no right of giving you a license diploma, this is a swindle. More than than, it is breaching Romanian education laws, which specify the requirements which universities have to fulfill in teaching their students, and breaches laws for giving students legal documents which grant them all their rights provided by law (i.e. their diplomas) when such documents are granted without having the slightest right of granting them. So, the Spiru Haret University is swindling some of its students and it is illegally granting legal documents. This makes it a double felony. The Romanian tragedy is that this University is very powerful (a lot of Romanian Parliament members are teachers at Spiru Haret) and is able to fool the police and the public prosecutors and even threaten public clerks with paying it damages for writing government decisions which fully comply with the laws in application. I call it harassment. Spiru Haret University tries to harass public clerks into making them so afraid that they won't comply with the law when writing the decisions of the Romanian government. You could think this comes directly from a book by Roberto Saviano. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

We will know in a month when the new updated International Handbook comes out, End of March 2010. Only school that are goverment approved make it on the list.--Super (talk) 04:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

As I said, the Spiru Haret University still has some accredited/authorized studies (this was not denied by the Government Decision 943/2009), and if it has only one accreditted/authorized study it will make it to that list. Therefore such list cannot prove that it is not a diploma mill. So, the problem is not with the authorized/accreditted studies from such university (studies which are fully ok according to the law), but it lies precisely with the lack of accreditation/authorization of certain of its studies. So, this handbook will be irrelevant in our discussion.

The point is: the Spiru Haret University is at the center of a big accreditation scandal, which renders illegal many of its operations (but not all of them). All I have done here is render the details of this scandal and provided hard sources with verifiable information about it. It is a clash between a diploma mill and the Romanian government. The Romanian government wants to keep this university within the limits provided by Romanian laws, and if the Spiru Haret University does not like Romanian laws it should find another country to settle in. Instead of doing that, they want to eat their cake and still have it. This is what makes it a diploma mill. Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:29, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of government decisions, the law says that a Romanian university has the right to enlist students for higher education studies if and only if such study is listed in the government decision of application for that year of study (i.e. in September 2010 is allowed to enlist students who begin their study then if and only if the government decision of application for studies starting September 2010 mentions such study, i.e. mentions the discipline, the specialization and the university which organizes it). If a study is not being listed in such government decision means that it is illegal to enlist students for such study. The Spiru Haret University found a tricky way around such rules, by removing itself from the application of such government decisions, through administrative litigation at the Bucharest Court of Appeal. Alas, this is only a temporary remedy, since this government decisions have been temporarily suspended, they have not been canceled in respect to the Spiru Haret University. Sooner or later the law will become of full application (as it has been already enforced for the Government Decisions no. 676/2007 and no. 635/2008), and everybody will see that they have enlisted students without having the legal right to do so (as it has already become clear for the years 2007 and 2008). This means that this university has unlawfully received money from these students, i.e. it has swindled them (the swindle is a felony in Romanian law). Further it will be a case for Romanian prosecutors, and the only thing to wonder is that the swindlers have not been jailed yet. In any other EU country they would have been spending some years in jail. Tgeorgescu (talk) 13:33, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

This situation clearly is very complicated -- and most contributors to En.Wikipedia are seriously handicapped in understanding it because the sources are primarily (if not exclusively) in the Romanian language. Considering that "diploma mill" is a very negative label (for example, I recall that it was expunged from the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization website in order to resolve a lawsuit that charged ODA with libel for using this term to describe one specific institution), I think it's best not to mention any specific institution in this article without extraordinarily strong evidence that it is deemed to be a diploma mill. Regardless of the truth, that kind of extraordinarily strong evidence does not exist in the case of Spiru Haret University. Let the article Spiru Haret University discuss the institution's situation, but let's not include it in this article. --Orlady (talk) 14:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)