KJVTRUTH

I am the mediator for your request on Was Jefferson a Mason?

I suggest you to add a new paragraph like:

Possible members of Freemasonry

• T. Jefferson

I think this may be a good compromise. I'm looking forward your reaction. Bonaparte talk 15:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

You have to answer if it is a good compromise. Please feel free to participate to discussion. -- Bonaparte talk 16:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Bonaparte but the Masons do what they want regardless of what you or I think is a good compromise. User:KJVTRUTH

"your" user page is still an encylopedic entry. Your recent additions are both not relevant to you, unless you emphasized that, & they are entirely uncited anyway. Perhaps you would like to adjust your entry, lest someone does it for you? Grye 11:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Commencing...User_page#Removal... Grye 18:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Grye, My disclaimer clearly states that what is now listed is what intrests me and is what I believe to be real. The only difference between me and you, is your oppinion is what is posted on the "list of freemasons" page. [User:KJVTRUTH]

OK, I reverted to your last edit, w/sockpuppet tags. & you state the above as fact. Where's that leave you? As an abuser of wikipedia. Grye 05:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

KJVTRUTH is not Lightbringer. See this diff for details.--SarekOfVulcan 17:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

That's not what that link says... Just says he doesn't appear to be, based upon the IP address country origin, and those can be faked. So there is no technical evidence supporting that he is Lightbringer is all you can really say. Wish the Internet was built that we could tell for sure, but it's not. DreamGuy 18:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

There's no way this user is capable of those bypasses. But, user could have easily been vacationing etc at that time. Grye 03:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I notice you haven't voted "keep" yet... --SarekOfVulcan 00:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm reasonably satisfied that this user has taken appropriate steps to distinguish his own opinion on the basis of his personal research, as stated on his user page, from the content of the encyclopedia articles. Provided he makes no statement that goes against the spirit of Wikipedia or breaks the law, I see no problem here. I'll begin to be concerned if links are made to alleged wrongdoing or the page is of a format similar to our articles. This doesn't appear to be the case now. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 06:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the spirit of Wikipedia to provide factual, correct information without bias? MSJapan 17:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

It is. I think that this userpage can be presumed to be a factual, correct statement about this user's opinion. As it's a userpage I wouldn't expect it to be unbiased--all expressions of personal opinion are necessarily biased. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of fairness and discussion, I would point out a number of inconsistencies on your userpage that I think you should remove.

• Bill Clinton was not a Mason. He was in DeMolay and did not go on in the Craft. You state this plainly. So why do you want to claim him as a Freemason? If your page is a list of Freemasons, Clinton should not be on it.
• Dick Cheney is not a Freemason. There is a statement on Talk:List of Freemasonsfrom the Secretary of Cheyenne Lodge that Cheney was never a member, and that the oversight would be fixed. Therefore, Cheney should not be on the lkist.
• Skull and Bones is a Yale fraternity, not a Masonic group. Therefore, the current President Bush is not a Freemason, and should not be on your list. If Skull and Bones was Masonic, John Kerry would need to be on your list, and he is not.[1]
• Neither Thomas Jefferson not James Madison can be proven to have been Masons. The only record anyone has of Jefferson regarding Masonry is a single visit to a Lodge. There is no consensus of evidence to conclusively prove either way, so we err on the side of caution. While your Masonic Bible cite says they are, the PA Grand Lodge, which you used to cite other Vice Presidents, says that it cannot be proven and therefore they cannot be considered Masons. [2]
• Charles Taze Russell was not a Freemason. See here (scroll down to question 9, Was <insert name> a Freemason, and he is in the list).
• LBJ was not a Mason. He did his EA degree and stopped.[3] (rotten.com isn't the best site to use as proof, but it's the only one that has all the info that I can readily find, although there's plenty of sites that say he stopped, and Masonic museums also state this in Presidential exhibits). There's also a post on alt.freemasonry that says the same thing [4], and I'm sure I can find a few books when I get the chance.
• Your citation for Valance has nothing to do with the Morgan Affair (I read it), and is in fact wholly incorrect as a publication. Finney is conflating Blue Lodge, Chapter, and Scottish Rite for his own purposes and calling it all "Freemasonry" without explanation to the reader.
• Joseph Smith was a Mason, but it is contested whether he married Morgan's widow. Many believe Smith borrowed images from Masonry, as he was privy to the controversy in NY surrounding the publication of and the material contained in Morgan's book before starting the Church of LDS.
• Military officers listing: "The below listed Men where named by a Mason in a letter to his brother Masons. I am leaving his name of to protect him from his oath, if he still believes in it." - so what are you doing with private information? Second of all, there is no penalty in the obligation preventing Masons from being named as such. If there was, would we have a list on Wikipedia? This is blatant creation of fear where it does not exist, in order to serve a POV purpose, by assigning nefarious goals to the Masons where they do not exist.
• Joseph Smith - the date you give does not appear in the article you cite, and I am skeptical as to its sourcing, as a recent article in Philalethes on Nauvoo did not cite this article at all. I will, however, check on this.

Followup: The article is correct, but there's still no date cited in it. MSJapan 16:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe the rest of the material is accurate, and probably already appears on the list. MSJapan 19:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Point by Point Response from [user:KJVTRUTH] to MSJapan,

1)Bill Clinton appeard on the Cover of Freemasonry Today, I clearly stated that He was a member of DeMolay, and did not enter the Blue Lodge. He was a member of the Masonic family and though he has discraced himself, his name and country by his lie and affair he still was a member of the Masonic Family in his youth.If DeMolay is not Run by Masons for young males to get them ready to join a lodge when they get older let me know.

2) =Dick Cheney WAS listed as a Mason=Masonic Web Sites that Do or DID call Dick Cheney a Mason

Cheney called a Masonhttp://www.harrystrumanfreemasons.org/famous_masons.htm [Verified 10/26/2005, Site completly gone 12/20/2005]While not President, the highest ranking elected government official who is a Mason is currently Dick Cheney, Vice President of United States, a member of Cheyenne Lodge No. 1, Cheyenne, Wyoming

Cheney called a Masonhttp://rsmasons.org/famous.html [first verified 10/24/2005][verified 01/14/2006]

Cheney, Richard "Dick" Vice President to George W. Bush (2001- ). Cheyenne Lodge No. 1, Cheyenne, Wyoming http://www.pagrandlodge.org/district37/672/WL672-FamousMasons.html [Verified 10/26/2005][Removed Cheney 12/2005]

3) Formally known as the Brotherhood of Death, the Skulls and bones is branch of the Illuminati that Adam Weishaupt founded in Germany in 1776The Illuminati infiltrated the Masonic Order and influenced manyof its rituals and underpinnings of the order such as the secret handshakes, the policies of control, collusion, manipulation, and murder. Skulls and Bones is a Yale fraternity that was created by William H. Russellof Russell and Company, an opium empire. Russell Recruited president William Howard Taft's Father Alphonso.

http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/conspiracy/research/masonpres.html

begin exceprts from above website=====================================================

John Quincy Adams was the first noteworthy person to expose the Masons and Illuminati. He was NOT a Mason. In 1800, J.Q. Adams wrote three letters to Colonel William L. Stone, a top Mason, in which he exposed how Jefferson was using Masonic lodges for subversive Illuministic purposes. Those three letters are at this very time in Whittenburg Square Library in Philadelphia. Later, he thoroughly investigated the organization and wrote the first broad expose in 1833 called Letters on the Masonic Institution, by John Quincy Adams as a result of the tragic murder of a Mason (Captain William Morgan in 1826 in New York).

Thomas Jefferson had correspondences with Adam Weishaupt (the founder of the Illuminati/Masonic Order on may 1, 1776). Even though these early founders had Masonic ties, it was a fairly benign organization until it was infiltrated by Adam Weishaupt's Illuminati. The Constitution and the framework which had been established by the founding fathers with the help and influence of St. Germain began its serious degradation when Andrew Jackson took office in 1828. In addition to being poorly educated and making a mockery of the Executive Office, Jackson deviated significantly from the previous Presidents. A good example of this is in the following quote:

"the fact that Jackson, unlike previous Presidents, did not defer to Congress in policy-making but used his power of the veto and his party leadership to assume command."

Through the newly engineered Masonic Order, Jackson resorted to party politics, defamation, and general mischief in order to win the election.

Upon reflection and in actual fact, John Adams is probably the greatest of all Founding Fathers. He was not a Mason even though some references state otherwise and in actual fact, in the "Adams Chronicles", he warned Washington about Jefferson and Hamilton's Illuminati association and their "worship of Lucifer."

End exceprts from above website=====================================================

So, the point I am making about Skulls and Bones is a Order under control of the Illuminati, and just like 'Free'Masonry with many of the same secret dark rituals given practice through the Illuminati have given the Order it's many so called Ancient practices that they do not willfuly expose to the Light of Day or to public view.

If you want more info on Skulls and Bones, and where it came from and how it was used by the Illuminati read the second essay, A Bush Dynasty at http://www.sanspap.com/columns2000.htm

4) Just how much proof do YOU need?

• Thomas Jefferson, (1743-1826), 3rd POTUS 1801-1809, Charlottesville Lodge No. 90, Charlottesville, VA, Masonic Bible CYCLOPEDIC 1955 edition-,[2],[3],4],[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13]

• James Madison (1751-1836), 4th POTUS 1809-1817, made MM in Hiram Lodge No. 59, Westmoreland County, VA. -,[2][3][4]

5) Charles Taze Russell, 1in one source, 2is another.

6) LBJ had taken the first degree of Three. ok, He was one/Third of the way to being a Master Mason. I do realize that in most Masons oppinions the Entered Apprentice is not worthy to be called a Mason, since he has not achived the DEGREE of Master.

7) Reverend Finneys Work is Valid, and says much about the Murder of Morgan and the confession of H. Valance to William Morgan's Murder in it.

8) if you can't trust the Mormons about Smith and who he married,can you trust the Masons about Pike not being in the KKK?

9) Good point, it is not a secret to be known as a Mason, even though todaymany who where once called masons are no longer by Masons, such as Jefferson,Madison, Van Buren, Pierce, Taylor.... You are right I should list him as theSource, and he can explain how his letter to his brother Masons came intothe hands of someone who Is not a Mason. My Source is Ed. Bowen, I hope he is not punished for this letter he wrote in any way.

10) Joseph Smiths Lodge and Date is listed onhttp://freemasonry.bcy.ca/textfiles/famous.html

1)Clinton - DeMolay is a Masonic Youth Organization, but it doesn't prepare anyone to join the Masons, in the same way that Cub Scouts doesn't prepare you for the Boy Scouts. They are related, but not the same - they even have a completely different administrative system.

2) Cheney - there is a note frim the Lodge Secreatary of Cheyenne #1 on the Talk page of List of Freemasons stating that Cheney was not a member. People do make mistakes, especially when they do not have the correct information.

3) Skull and Bones, regardless of what people think, is not Masonic, and the real Illuminati (Weishaupt's group) aren't Masonic either. Weishaupt may have based his group on something Masonic, as he was a Mason at one point, but it's an unfounded conspiracy theory to link the two or to claim that the group still exists. Skull and Bones is not Masonic, neither Bush is a Mason, and if SnB was Masonic, why don't you claim John Kerry as a Mason?

4) Jefferson - The link to the PA Grand Lodge Presidents exhibit (which I cited above) states that there is no definite proof of Jefferson's membership, and just because a lot of sites copy the same information does not make that information correct. If it cannot be verified, it is not a fact.

5) Russell - The second link you cite specifically states that Russell was not a Mason. So I would say that he is not, and your own citation proves it.

6) LBJ - Correct. He did not finish the degrees, and was therefore not a member. That's how it works, just the same way that someone who does not finish their coursework can't claim they have a college degree.

7) Finney - What I read was mostly about how Masonry is incompatible with Chritianity. Finney's statement is third-hand, and the meager facts of the matter do not bear out the claims made. Finney has blatant errors in his book, so what in particular makes the part about Morgan be any more reputable or factual? He's quoting from a book that he says probably no one has, but he does. That's a big red flag, especially sijnce he exaggerates the number of Lodges that closed down by about 500%.

8) Morgan's widow - This is another point that can be argued either way. How can someone be a widow if one's husband is not dead? The lack of a consensus makes it impossible to verify. You are insinuating a connection that isn't necessarily there. It's interesting that if her husband was murdered by Masons that she would then go marry someone who became one, not that there are any documents supporting any sort of marriage in the legal sense.

9) They're not called Masons now because they weren't Masons then. A lot of people suffer from wishful thinking, and say things that they don't have proof for. When research is done and shows that something once believed is not true, to claim it is still true is simply not proper. For example, what would you say if I told you the world was flat? My biggest complaint here is your insinuation (again) that someone is going to be punished for something when that is simply not the case, and you obviously don't know, or you wouldn't even make the claim.

10) Smith - then cite it. The Philalethes you cited did not give that information, and you claimed it did. MSJapan 21:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Second Response from KJVTRUTH to MSJapan:1) Cub souts does not prepare you to be a boy scout? Are you serious?I guss the Ranks, and skills and teachings of yet another organization usedto prepare boys to be Men ready to follow leadership and directionand ORDERS, and a beliefe in a Universal Rite to respect ALL gods is nota rip off of DeMolay. Oh wait learning to Camp, Fish, Hunt and tie knots cancome in usefull sometimes in life even if you don't Join the Millitary.

2) If cheney was never a Mason, why was it not corrected for such a long period?Harrystruman loge listed him for I believe more than two years. and I had found him listed on numerous web sites until Cheney got ready to become President.

3) John Kerry is a Skulls and Bones Member, wich is why the Election was stacked, Once again whoever you vote for you get a bonesman, Secret Order, Drink Red liquid out of a Skull, Meet in a Crypt, Lay in a coffin, Get picked for being white, usually wealthy and well connected it sounds Masonic to me.

In my case, there's no red liquid, no skull, no crypt, no coffin, no money, and no connections. :-)--SarekOfVulcan 06:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

4) Masonic sources such as the Masonic bible have no value to you since you belive what you are told to believe today, despite what evidence may say that talks from the past.

Ooh, kinda like church? Or what you hope everyone else will do - believe what they're told, by you? Grye 05:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

5) The watchtower doctrines are Unitarian, and Deny the Diety of Christ, which is masonic doctrine to the core, If he was not Masonic he believed what it teaches.

6) a Associate degree in Arts is almost as usefull as a Masters degree in Arts when you go to get a job in a factory today.

Hmm. Yeah, that'd explain why most people who earnestly seek a Masters degree in Art wouldn't apply for a factory job. Grye 05:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

7) You are right, Masonry certainly did not die, but it was wounded badly by the belife of many that Masonry killed a man for his blood oath, and covered up the crime to fill the oath of the living Masons.

8) Good point, if she is always called a widow by Masons it is because they knew what happened to Morgan. Morgan took a eternal vacation from his wife, and two small children.

9) I wish There was no proof of any of Americas Presidents being Masons, but Masonic documents state plainly otherwise, do you think they are false?

10) Mormon teaching, Satan and Jesus both Angels and Brothers, Ablert Pike and Morlas and Dogma comes to mind.

==============================================================================

3) Skulls and Bones, Masonry, similarities.

  a) Secret Societies (blood oaths)  b) Started by Masons  c) Controlled by the Illuminati  d) exudes Great control over United States and World Governments,     Education, Economics, Media, Publishing, Religious Leaders,     Members (slaves).  e) Collects much money from it's Members.

  f) Pick only followers who are moldable and unquestioning.  g) Pick only White, non handycapt people who can pay dues,   h) Pick people to use that have influence.  i) Make members feel special or set apart to gain their support.

• a) half right, but only barely - neither of those things apply to Masonry any more than anybody else, including the BSA. The oaths are bloodless.
• b) No, Skull and Bones was started by two students, neither of whom were Masons - read the WP article on it. Also, if Masonry wasn't started by Masons, there's a problem.
• c) Utter speculation - Skull and Bones isn't specifically mentioned by any reputable source to have anything to do with the Illuminati, and it is definitely not true regarding the Masons. It's just conspiracy theory garbage.
• d) Not especially. Why not accuse The Wharton School of Business of the JFK School of gonvernment of the same?
• e) No again. Less than $100 a year for Lodge dues in most cases, and even less in others. The S and B dues aren't stated anywhere, so I don't know where you're getting the idea.
• f) Actually, Masonry values the ability to think and reason. Skull and Bones probably doesn't, but who knows?
• g) No again for Masonry, because I've seen plenty of Lodges with wheelchair ramps, and plenty of brothers who are not white. Skull and Bones only takes a small number of people from one class year, and the likelihood of them not being white and able-bodied is pretty slim, given that that is the majority on almost all college campuses.
• h) Actually, when you are 18 and in college and join the Masons, you've really got no use at all to anybody, and the Masons could care less. The key is character, not how much money you make or what your job is. That's where the phrase "on the level" came from.
• i) I'm sorry, but isn't that the point of any organization or club, including those of a religious nature? If you don't feel special, why go? MSJapan 02:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Grand Master of what state? What years?--SarekOfVulcan 21:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

That is a good question, If you know please inform me, I removed grand master refference to Tyler because I read the following quote wrong. I had it filed under John Tyler becouse it talks of him, but was really mostly about William Byrd Page. If you have any info on what Lodges Tyler attended and what degrees Tyler may have acchieved please let me know.The 1951 Masonic Bible with presidential info is said to claim him, and this claim is referenced by the 1955 version that I have myself.

"William Byrd Page , In Masonic endeavors he served the Alexandria-Washington Lodge, and eventually became its Grand Master. As Grand Master, he represented the Lodge in a ceremony laying the cornerstone of the Washington Equestrian Statue at the Capitol in Richmond, Virginia on May 11,1850. Among those present at the ceremony were John B. Floyd, Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia, President Zachary Taylor and former President John Tyler."

I don't have the information about what degrees he acheived, because as far as people who have done much more research that I have can tell, he never belonged to a lodge. You use Paul Bessel's site to back up some of your other assertions, why don't you believe him when he says this?--SarekOfVulcan 02:49, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Since the 1955 version of the Masonic Bible I own infers that earlier versions of the same type bible claimed him, and it is a Masonic Source I have some faith that their was some evidence listed in the 1951 version that is posted on the Internet as claiming Tyler as a Mason. I know there is evidence pointing both to his membership and against it. I would take another Masonic Source with lodge membership as hard proof of his membership.Right now I only give the Masonic source I have as soft proof, that I do view as strong enough to disregard any claim he may have made to the public that he was not a Mason.

However, you're thereby ignoring 50 years of research that may have shown otherwise, just to make a point. Masonic scholarship now is a lot better than it used to be, and the same can be said for a lot of research fields. To take your source as valid and no one else's is a bit short-sighted, to say the least. Heck, I've got Masonic trivia books that are internally inconsistent, so the "facts" need to be taken with a grain of salt. MSJapan 01:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I will wait till I have the 1951 Version of the Masonic Bible, or have some other Masonic Source to affirm the implied possibility in the 1955 Version, before I list him as a Mason again.

Messages for Grye

why did you remove my added information about the presidents. Are you afraid someone may not be able to refute their membership at some later date if they are listed with the order of their presidency, date of Presidency, and their date of birth, and date of death?

You sure do like that word, "Vandal". I think maybe you are User:Mahabone.

Grye 04:55, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

If you were actually right in any of your accusations about my editing motives, why wouldn't I be hell-bent to keep J. Edgar Hoover (etc -nothing really wrong with the man in my eyes) off the list? I'm telling you, right now, my only concern, with the adding or removal of names on this list, is if they are/were or not Freemasons. Grye 05:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

ie.

• George Washington, (1732-1799), 1st POTUS 1789-1797, Fredericksburg Lodge No. 4; Alexandria Lodge No. 22, VA
• James Monroe, (1758-1831), 5th POTUS 1817-1825, Williamsburgh Lodge No. 6, VA
• Andrew Jackson, (1767-1845), 7th POTUS 1829-1837, Harmony Lodge No. 1; Past Grand Master of Tennessee.
• James Knox Polk, (1795-1849), 11th POTUS 1845-1849, Columbia Lodge No. 31, TN
• James Buchanan, (1791-1868), 15th POTUS 1857-1861, Past Master of Lancaster Lodge No. 43, Lancaster, PA; Past District Deputy Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania
• Andrew Johnson, (1808-1875), 17th POTUS 1865-1869, Greenville Lodge No. 119, TN
• James Abram Garfield, (1831-1881), 20th POTUS 1881-1881, Magnolia Lodge No. 20, OH
• William McKinley, (1843-1901), 25th POTUS 1897-1901, Hiram Lodge No. 21, VA
• Theodore Roosevelt, (1858-1919), 26th POTUS 1901-1909, Matinecock Lodge No. 806, Oyster Bay, NY
• William Howard Taft, (1857-1930), 27th POTUS 1909-1913, "Mason at sight"; affiliated Kilwinning Lodge No. 356, OH
• Warren Gamaliel Harding, (1865-1923), 29th POTUS 1921-1923, Marion Lodge No. 70, OH
• Franklin Delano Roosevelt,(1882-1945), 32nd POTUS 1933-1945, Holland Lodge No. 8, NY
• Harry S. Truman, (1884-1972), 33rd POTUS 1945-1953, 33° Belton Lodge No. 450, Belton, MO; Past Grand Master of Missouri
• Lyndon Baines Johnson, (1908-1973), 36th POTUS 1963-1969, Johnson City Lodge 561, Johnson City, TX
• Gerald R. Ford, (1913- ), 38th POTUS 1974-1977, Columbia Lodge No. 3, Washington, DC, courtesy to Malta Lodge No. 465, Grand Rapids, MI., (birth name: Leslie Lynch King)

The AfD template for List of Anti-Masons is not appropriate for inclusion on your userpage, so I have removed it. AfD templates only belong on the pages they refer to. If it's publicity you want, all of the pages go into a community viewable list anyway. MSJapan 06:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

KJVTRUTH, I have reverted to the last version with the comment from MSJapan included. Even though this is your Talk Page, this does not give you the right to delete any comments made in your Talk Page, no matter how severe the criticism. RashBold ^{User_talk:RashBold} 18:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)