Wimpus
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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Gderrin (talk) 21:52, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Etymology of Orthoceras
Hello Orthoceras,
I do apologise for welcoming you to Wikipedia, then reverting one of your edits! Please do not take offence - Wikipedia needs more editors like you who are clearly knowledgeable (including about Ancient Greek).
Wkipedia requires references. In the case of the etymology of "Orthoceras", a reference was given. After the citation you added "There is no Greek nominative κέρως, only a genitive singular κέρως, an Attic contraction. Nominative singular is κέρας. The form -κέρως is a morpheme seen in compounds, but is not a simplex, as κέρας is." I am quite sure that you are correct - but that's only my opinion. Fortunately, or unfortunately - Wikipedia is about references, not opinions.
Roland Brown gives "keros, m. horn" on page 422. (His book can be accessed online here.) Other sources could be listed,[1][2] but the Brown citation should be adequate.
Please feel free to discuss this either here or on my talk page. Gderrin (talk) 22:34, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Dear Gderrin, first of all, thank you for welcome and thank you for directing me to the work of Brown. I am not familiar with this specific dictionary, so it could be possible that, due to unfamiliarity, I might misinterpret the content of the specific entry on p. 422. I can clearly see that he mentions "keros", a form that I can not find in Liddell & Scott as κέρος or κέρως, although the form -κέρως is seen as second member of compounds. In the Etymological dictionary of Greek (Beekes & van Beek, 2010, p. 676: κέρας) this second member is explained as "As a second member mostly -κερως [m., f.] < -κερα(σ)-ος seen in ὑψί-, ἄ-κερως, etc." Brown seems to indicate that keros is a simplex noun, instead of part of a compound. In ancient Greek one can find the adjective κεραός (horned). It might be that κεραός could be contracted to κέρως, but that would still be incompatible with the view of Brown that keros is a noun. Another possibility might be that Brown misread/misidentified κηρός (bees-wax).
- Brown only mentions that "keros" can mean "horn", not that "keros" (instead of "keras") is used in the specific coinage Orthoceras. So, based on that specific entry on p. 422, keras and keros seem equally valid. Moreover, the ending -as in orthoceras, seems to hint at a compound with κέρας instead. It seems consistent with Beekes and van Beek (2010, p. 676: κέρας) "As a second member ... δί-κερας [n.] 'double horn' (Callix.) and the plant names αἰγό-, βού-, ταυρό-κερας [n.] (after the shape of the fruit, Strömberg 1940: 54)." Creating a compound orthoceras with κέρως as building block seems quite complicated, as you would have to add -ος to κέρας to create κέρως (<κεραός), while instantaneously delete -ος to return back to κέρας as in Orthoceras. Please notice, that Orthoceras is neuter, just like κέρας, while keros is identified by Brown as masculine. With kind regards, Wimpus (talk) 00:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for that - comprehensive answer appreciated. I've read that botanists often give names that do not follow the grammatical rules of the languages they use but Robert Brown (the botanist) probably wanted Orthoceras to mean "straight horn". I also noticed your corrections on some other pages, including for melanocephalus on this page. Thank you - much better to make corrections rather than just tag them "citation needed". Gderrin (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Etymologies for taxa
An etymology should never be added to a taxon article unless the original descriptions explicit etymology section, or direct reference to the describing authors purpose in a name can be supplied. Anything else is a violation of WP:OR, since its the wikipedia author putting personal interpretation on something that is not actually ever defined. Linnaeus did not ever provide etymologies for taxa named, and many subsequent authors followed suit, with etymology sections in taxon descriptions only recently becoming commonplace. As such I removed the etymology on Atta cephalotes.--Kevmin § 17:12, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- In that case, you have to similarly delete the unsourced etymological information from the first part of Trypanosomatida (that refers to "trypano" while ancient Greek writes τρύπανον, trypanon) and the unsourced information from the taxonomy section (that refers to mastig, while ancient Greek writes μάστιξ, mastix). I appreciate your eagerness to use original sources (although in case etymological information is lacking in original sources, I think other vistas can be explored than simply deleting etymological information), but in some cases, the etymological explanation in the original source might still not be pleasing. In Acer castorrivularis (to mention another Wiki article you have recently edited/seen), rivularis is translated (with the original source as in-line citation) as the noun "rill" or "brook", while Stearn's Botanical Latin (1983) considers rivularis as adjective with the meaning: "pertaining to brooklets". In classical Latin, rivulus is attested with the meaning "small brook" or "rill". It could be, that the original authors have swapped rivulus and rivularis in their description. In those cases, citing the original sources, without any additional notes, will still give false etymologies. I have posted earlier an question regarding this issue. Wimpus (talk) 19:11, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- You cant revise what the original authority say though, that is wholly against wp:original research. That some authors are using variations on how a root word is defined is not reason to "correct" the etymologies after the fact. That correction results is wiki putting a different meaning on the naming authors intent/etymology. It fails the OR test and is not allowed. Other vistas also would result in the same situation, as they to would be making suggestions or assertions of the describing authors intent with no actual reference by said author.--Kevmin § 01:02, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
the only real answer is that I was working from scattered online sources and got confused.
So if you feel the need to change anything, go ahead. Serendipodous 23:25, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
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Etymology
Hi Wimpus,
Instead of deleting sections of articles that explain etymology, or inserting irrevelant statements, as you did here, can you please in future make edits that make a meaningful positive contributions? In particular, can I encourage you to refer readers to the correct derivation, such as κεφᾰλή? Thank you.
Samsara 19:58, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- Dear Samsara, in case I would like to make a positive contribution, I have to find a good source that would explain gynomorph. I doubt, whether I can find a source easily for this particularly word. Evidently, this word is derived from γυνή and μορφή, but one should use a source that explicitely states that. In Ancient Greek, γυναικόμορφος is attested, consistent with all other compounds in Ancient Greek that starts with γυναικ(o) (with γυναιμανής as exception). So, gynomorph seems to be an odd duck. But, writing the English form gynomorph with Greek letters as γυνόμορφ, seems to be merely some kind of joke. So, that part has to be removed, as it is merely vandalism. Wimpus (talk) 21:38, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Hello Wimpus,
I appreciate your work and especially your knowledge of Ancient Greek but the content of Wikipedia articles must be reflected in the references. So whilst you may be quite correct in the difference between the nominative case and genitive case of ous and otos, botanists apparently do not distinguish. You will notice that at the end of the sentence there is a reference to the Journal of the Adelaide Botanic Garden. You may have difficulty accessing the journal so I will quote it directly (page 53): "Derivation of "Microtis" is from the Greek mikros meaning small, and otos an ear, and refers to the small membranous auricles of the column." I should note, the name is Microtis, not Microus. I also suspect that since Microtis is a word, rather than a clause or sentence, nominative case/genitive case is not an issue. It is simply a word derived from two Greek words.[1] Please replace the original etymology. Gderrin (talk) 01:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
- Dear Gderrin, it is not common to use the genitive case (by people that are familiar with Greek grammar), without using the nominative case. Therefore, Wilbur Brown does not mention the genitive case, without mentioning the nominative case (to prevent confusion).The other reference state: "otos an ear" (I can access the article via JSTOR), but that is actually incorrect as ὠτός means "of (an) ear". It seems merely that Bates might be not entirely familiar with Greek grammar. Other sources, do mention the nominative case οὖς, see this, this or this one from 1855. As Microtis was already coined in 1810, Bates his etymology can not be considered as the original etymology. Wimpus (talk) 02:04, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
- With respect, it does not matter whether you or I think something is "incorrect" (including "not reliable for etymological information"). Wikipedia relies on verifiability not truth. It does not matter whether you know more about Ancient Greek, or I know more about botany - if it's in a reliable reference (as for example, the etymology references for Trichoglottis and Melaleuca calyptroides) it should stand. For example, I agree with you about the etymology of "calyptroides", but that's not what's in the reference. (I think you can download it here.) Please do not delete references because you don't agree with what's in them. Gderrin (talk) 03:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
- Dear Gderrin, the link you used shows us that Trichoglottis: "is derived from the Greek thrix, tricho, hair and glotta, tongue, refers to the pubescent labellum in the type species.". Apperently, you did not agreed with their assessment, as you wrote: "The name Trichoglottis is derived from the Ancient Greek words trichos meaning "hair"8:392 and glottis meaning "tongue"8:466". You mentioned the form "trichos" that can not be found in keys.trin.org.au and wrote "glottis" instead of glotta. So, it seems that you neglected some key parts of keys.trin.org.au and prefered Brown instead. However, in Brown "glottis" is not found on p. 466, but on pp. 370, 538, 610, 799 and is defined as: "mouth of the "windpipe" ". So, there is clearly a mismatch between Wikipedia and its two sources. That seems like a violation of verifiability not truth. By no means on purpose of course.
- Comparing these two sources, can be difficult, because we may wonder whether to use "thrix", "trichos" or "tricho" for hair. Familiarity with Greek forms can be advantage in such cases.
- And is the assessment that Trichoglottis is composed of thrix and glotta valid? This source seems to contradict this as it writes: "The name from the Greek trichos, and glottis, a tongue." We have established, based on Brown, that the glottis is the "mouth of the "windpipe", a definition that is confirmed by the Greek dictionary of Liddle and Scott. So, currently each source seems to conflict with the other source. So, therefore my decision to remove this inconsistent etymology and my advice, to carefully study your sources, before writing down a specific etymology. Wimpus (talk) 07:41, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
- With respect, it does not matter whether you or I think something is "incorrect" (including "not reliable for etymological information"). Wikipedia relies on verifiability not truth. It does not matter whether you know more about Ancient Greek, or I know more about botany - if it's in a reliable reference (as for example, the etymology references for Trichoglottis and Melaleuca calyptroides) it should stand. For example, I agree with you about the etymology of "calyptroides", but that's not what's in the reference. (I think you can download it here.) Please do not delete references because you don't agree with what's in them. Gderrin (talk) 03:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
You have reversed my change of images for the reason "Image contains typo". I do not understand you. The quality of the image (File:Gray309-en.svg) is the same, and the explanation (with labels and arrows) of the image IS BETTER than File:Gray309.png. So I do not agree with your action. Jmarchn (talk) 20:08, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
- Condiloid is not the correct English form, as it is condyloid process. The correct genitive of fascia is fasciae, as in [Tensor fasciae latae muscle|tensor fasciae latae] and not fascia, written as tensor fascia latae in the added image. Patelar is written patellar in patellar ligament and [Patellar tendon rupture|patellar tendon], instead of patelar ligament and patelar tendon as written in the added image. Wimpus (talk) 19:29, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Please, what is the incorrect genitive case?. I'll correct it... --Jmarchn (talk) 20:12, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
Edit warring
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be repeatedly reverting or undoing other editors' contributions. Although this may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is known as "edit warring" and is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, as it often creates animosity between editors. Instead of reverting, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.
If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to be blocked from editing Wikipedia. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount, and violating the three-revert rule is very likely to lead to a block. Thank you.You should read the three revert rule before contributing further to Eucalyptus leptopoda. The references back up the existing text, you need to take your concerns to the talk page of the article. Regards. Hughesdarren (talk) 08:56, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/30px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png)
Your recent editing history at Leucaena leucocephala shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
Botanical Latin
Hello Wimpus,
Thanks for your work. I do not profess to be an expert in either Latin or Greek, as you obviously are, but have had some experience in the use of Botanical Latin. Botanical Latin is different from Classical Latin and Ancient Greek. It does, however, have to conform to rules laid down in the International Code of Nomenclature for algae, fungi, and plants. I think Article 23 of that Code may be relevant to the present discussion.
- 23.2 "The epithet in the name of a species may be taken from any source whatever, and may be even composed arbitrarily." (Some examples are given.)
There are some rules about the use of Latin and Greek in the Code, but I don't think any of the corrections you have made that I have seen, have been because those rules have been broken.
I do appreciate your extensive knowledge of Latin and Ancient Greek and do not want to be involved in edit wars, but I do think a collaborative approach is valuable here. Gderrin (talk) 08:21, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
- Hello Gderrin, thank you for referring to Article 23. This rule deals with how names are composed, but does not give clear guidelines how to describe the etymology. In case I would name a new species Hamburger hamburger and would explain the name hamburger by writing down that hamburger is the name of the 45th president of the United States, than the editors of the journal will hopefully point out, that an hamburger is something completely different.
- So, in case Dean Nicolle coins the epithet extrica and writes: From the Latin extrico - disentangled, free, one hopes that some editors will inform mr. Nicolle, that extrico is actually the first person singular of the verb extricare and is actually not an adjective. Maybe, the Code may not prohibit mr. Nicolle from constructing such a dog-Latin "adjective" extrica, it does not justify to provide false etymologies (although it actually does not mention it).
- You clearly state: Botanical Latin is different from Classical Latin and Ancient Greek. I am not an expert in botanical Latin. My opinion on what botanical Latin might entail, is partially formed by the views of William T. Stearn, as expressed in his work Botanical Latin, that currently is on a pile of books besides my chair. Stearn emphasizes multiple times in his Botanical Latin that Botanical Latin is distinct from classical Latin (Stearn, 1983, p. 3: Increasing scientific need during the past 250 years for precision and economy in words bas made it distinct from classical Latin and it should be treated as such.) and thereby corroborates your statement.
- But is botanical Latin in such a way distinct from classical Latin, that verbs can easily morph in adjectives and adjectives can end on -o? Stearn mentions (1983, p. 3): The reader having no knowledge of classical Latin must first of all become acquainted with the PARTS OF SPEECH detailed in Chapters V-XII and the concepts of GENDER, NUMBER and CASE. Chapter V deals with nouns and chapter VI deals with adjectives and actually I can not find an adjective (from Latin origin) ending on -o in chapter VI. His declension tables follow closely the declension rules as can be found in grammars of classical Latin. So, it seems that the botanical Latin he describes is not completely different from classical Latin at all. Of course, there are words used, that were unknown by classical authors, specific orthography (stylus instead of stilus, sylvaticus instead of silvaticus, pyriformis instead of piriformis) accepted in botanical Latin that is condemned by classical scholars, but that is not on the same level as completely abandoning each single grammar rule. Stating that a word extrico in Latin exists, that means disentangled, free is merely an error based on ignorance (but imaginable as botanists are not trained in classical Latin), than based on some kind of a reliable botanical Latin source Dean Nicole might have used. Kevmin's remark: Botanical latin and zoological latin are NOT classic latin, they are what the authors make up on the spot is some extreme form of relativism, that actually implies that every author might have their own Latin language and each version being equally valid. So, in Dean Nicolle's Latin language, extrico really means disentangled or free, while similarly in my world, mr. Hamburger is really the 45th president of the United States. Both statements (extrico means disentangled or free and mr. Hamburger is the 45th president of the United States) are demonstrably false. And till now, nobody have made clear that the false etymologies I have identified, are actually true in botanical Latin. I do not see clear proof in Stearn that these lapsus are merely forms of botanical Latin.
- In coining names, Stearn refers to a few works that might be of assistance (Stearn, 1983, p. 5): To provide a new plant with an apt name not already used becomes more and more difficult as more and more names are published. WORDS OF GREEK ORIGIN are just as likely as Latin ones to be preoccupied. For their formation see Chapters XIX and XX. If these and the Vocabulary do not provide enough material, Roland Wilbur Brown's Composition of scientific Words (1956) should be consulted for suggestions, together with Oscar E. Nybakken's Greek and Latin in scientific Terminology (1960); in any event, checking with Liddell and Scott's monumental A Greek-English Lexicon (new ed. 1940) is advised
- So, he actually advises in any event to consult A Greek-English Lexicon (this work can also be found in the bibliography [p. 877] of Brown). In case ancient Greek would be entirely different than the Greek used by botanists to coin new names, than the advise of Stearn would be odd, but of course it isn't. It is clear that authors who would state that κέφαλος, instead of κεφαλή is the word for head, did not consult Liddell & Scott. I do not see a clear indication in Stearn that also the Greek of botanists, as used in their etymological explanation, is completely different from ancient Greek. So, it is demonstrably false to claim that κέφαλος means head in Greek.
- But I see a clear difference in reporting what a primary source states considering the etymology and what a secondary tells us about the etymology. In the first instance, we can still report that Dean Nicolle thinks that extrico means disentangled or free. That is not incorrect, as he might have actually had that thought process. But it is demonstrably false, if we would state that extrico actually means disentangled or free. See also the remarks of Peter Coxhead in this discussion. So we have to present false etymologies with an additional note and make clear by the wording, that the original author thought that was the specific meaning. But in using secondary sources, we have to be more strict. In secondary sources, the authors might have read the original publication and only paraphrase the original statement, which results in some cases in the propagation of false etymologies. Alternatively, in secondary sources, the authors might have constructed their own etymologies. In case the later is a false etymology, it is actually of no use. For the specific epithet leucocephala, I can find cephalos, cephala, cephalus, kephalos or kephala. Can they all be true? Of course not. We have to try to determine what the original author might have thought and what the real form of head in Greek is. I have checked the publication of De Wit in Taxon (1961), but as leucocephala is not a new epithet and Leucaena leucocephala is a combinatio nova, that is nomenclatorially derived from Lamarck's Mimosa leucocephala, an etymological explanation of leucocephala is therefore lacking in De Wit's publication. As older publications lack most of the time a proper etymological explanation (although I have not checked Lamarck's publication yet), those etymologies that derive leucocephala from cephalos, cephala, kephalos or kephala are merely uninformed guesses. In those cases, we have to delete those false etymologies. Or do I have to add all these false etymologies as equally valid to the Wiki-lemma? Till now, I have only heard from other editors, that the sources I have removed, would be reliable sources and therefore can not be removed. But, are those really reliable sources, as we can find numerous other sources that contradict those statements. In case we leave out classical Latin and ancient Greek from the equation and do not try to in any event, checking with Liddell and Scott's monumental A Greek-English Lexicon, we could be adding etymological non-sense to Wikipedia. Wimpus (talk) 19:42, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
- I continue to hold strongly the view that truth matters, and we should not simply report as fact information in reliable secondary sources that is verifiably false. Unfortunately, there's a long history of confusion and even opposition to this view, as can be seen from the essay at WP:VNT. Wimpus makes some good points, but following policy in the English Wikipedia, we cannot simply "delete .. false etymologies" if they are widely reported in acceptable sources. We can, however counterpose them with alternatives, leaving the reader to decide.
- An example of where I faced this problem can be seen at Polygonum § Taxonomy. I could probably easily find a dozen sources that would be acceptable under WP:RS that derive the genus name from γόνυ, including three on my shelf, but this is simply an etymological reconstruction. I think that the approach I took in that article is the one mandated by WP policies: report what 'reliable' sources say, whether or not you believe them to be true, plus the explanation you believe to be correct, all as neutrally as possible. (The "however" in the third sentence is probably not sufficiently neutral, on reflection.) Peter coxhead (talk) 21:01, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response, Peter coxhead. In case "false etymologies" would be widely reported in acceptable sources, than it could be of importance. But I doubt whether the sources that I have removed are reliable at all for etymological explanations. In the aforementioned case of Leucaena leucocephala, I have removed the etymological explanation provided by WorldAgroforestryCenter. The actualy link was dead and writing that κέφαλος would mean head, is actually non-sensical. The editors (Kevmin and Mark Marathon that reverted back my edit, probably have not checked whether the link was working properly and have not checked the etymological contents of the site. I found, what is probably the updated link and the site does not state that κέφαλος is head, but actually writes: The specific name ‘leucocephala’ comes from ‘leu’, meaning white, and ‘cephala’, meaning head, referring to the flowers. Declaring that leu means white is even more non-sensical. The site is riddled with errors as here I can read that leptocarpa is derived: Greek 'lepos'-slender (omitting a t) and here it states that: The name tetraphyla is derived from tetra-four phylon-leaf, in allusion to the grouping of leaves in whorls of four. (omitting a l in phylon and in the epithet). The form carpus is declared Greek here, while on other pages they write this as carpos (with an incorrect transliteration of Greek kappa, while using k in a preceeding Greek word). These lapsus make this site an unreliable source for etymological information.
- Another source of conflict was Themeda triandra. Gderrin stated: The specific epithet (triandra) is derived from the Ancient Greek word andros meaning "man" or "male"[1]: 509 with the prefix tri meaning "three"[1]: 798 . His source (Brown, 1956) actually states: aner, andros, with the second form being the genitive case, explained by Brown in his introduction (Brown, 1956, p.5: The genitives of nouns are given only when they help to clarify the spelling of the root-stem or combining base. For this reason the genitives in -ae of Latin first and in -i of second declension nouns, and those in -ou of Greek nouns, are omitted.) Only mentioning the genitive case, without the nominative case is confusing, as andros does not mean male, but of a male, while a nominative Andros is the name of a Greek island or a Greek city. Therefore, I changed andros to aner, consistent with Brown. Mark Marathon however reverted my edit by stating: Source says "aner, andros, m. man, male". In this case andros is correct and thereby misinterpreting the source, before recognizing that the edit of Gderrin is OR ( Actually this is all OR since the reference doesn't mention this species], although adding a reference that is a mirror of Wikipedia (with a note on the specific site: Source: http:https://www.search.com.vn/wiki/index.php?lang=en&q=Themeda_triandra&oldid=860656656). In these conflicts I have to deal with editors, that do not recognize genitive cases and can not distinguish reliable sites from unreliable sites riddled with errors or even Wiki-mirrors.
- In your example, the two sources that might give false etymologies, might be respectable sources, while in the aforementioned cases, I have removed sources that are clearly unreliable considering etymological information. Maybe we should make a list of sites that can not be used for etymological derivations as those sites are hit-and-miss. Editors without any knowledge of Greek or Latin can not judge the veracity of these sites properly. Wimpus (talk) 08:14, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Wimpus: two points:
- Yes, having looked at it, I agree that www.worldagroforestry.org is not a reliable source of etymology, so I support your removal of it.
- I think you are being too picky about triandra. A precise etymology would be something like this. The epithet triandra is the feminine of triandrus, meaning "with three stamens" (Stearn [always an impeccable source], p. 516). Triandrus is a Botanical Latin adjective derived from tri- and -andrus, both ultimately of Greek origin. Stearn (p. 368) says "andro-, -andrus: in Gk. comp., male". The precise origin of the latinized andrus isn't explicitly given in any source I've yet found but it would be reasonable to deduce that it is formed, as adjectives almost always are, from the genitive stem of the noun, i.e. in this case the ancient Greek genitive ἀνδρός. I see no harm whatsoever in condensing this into something like the original. In this context, -andrus is indeed derived from the Greek word ἀνδρός, and it means "male (part)". What matters in explaining the meaning of Botanical Latin is not what the original Greek or Latin words meant (as Stearn notes, Ancient Greek κάλυξ originally had a much wider and looser meaning than the Botanical Latin calyx), but what it means now, in Botanical Latin.
- Peter coxhead (talk) 14:52, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Peter coxhead, which edition do you use of Stearn? I use the third edition, sixth impression. I can not find the specific sections yet, but I recognize Stearn's use of a hyphen to indicate that he is using word forming elements. It is actually a misconception that compounds are (always) based on the genitive cases. Debrunner's Griechische Wortbildungslehre (see here, actually a must-read in case you are interested in compounds in Greek) tells us that they are actually based on the stem. The stem of ἀνήρ ends on r. The -os (=o-stem) in τρἰανδρος is not the same -os as from the genitive case, but a separate (different) suffix. In case the genitive would be used in Greek to form a compound, the sigma would remain, as in Διόσδοτος (an example mentioned by Debrunner) or μυοσωτίς. But these instances in Greek are very rare. In this specific case of triandra we do not know whether the person who have coined the epithet has made a compound by himself or merely Latinized Greek τρἰανδρος (that is a actually a noun). Additionally, mentioning the genitive case, as if it was the nominative case, is quite confusing. The specific form [=orthography] of ancient Greek does not change when providing an etymological explanation of a botanical Latin epithet. The form ἀνδρός is still a genitive case and did not miracously became a nominative case. It might be necessary however, to point to a broadening of meaning in botanical Latin or changes in orthography (stilus -> stylus, piriformis -> pyriformis). Wimpus (talk) 15:16, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- I have Stearn, W.T. (2004), Botanical Latin, 4th (p/b) edition.
- It's of little or no relevance in an article about a plant what the original Greek meant, as I've pointed out above. What matters is what the Botanical Latin means. Epithets using -andrus/a/um are quite common, and refer to the stamens, and are derived from the the way the andr stem is used in Botanical Latin, including by Linnaeus. Dictionaries of Ancient Greek are of limited value when meanings have changed in this way. Rely on Stearn wherever possible. You also need to read WP:OR, because, like Gderrin, I don't think you understand how the English Wikipedia works. Its declared purpose is to report what reliable sources say, not what you or I think. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:45, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- Could you please provide a clear example in which I may have violated WP:OR? My opinion of what OR might entail, based on WP:OR, might be different from your opinion or particularly Gderrin's opinion.
- WP:OR indicates that you can not state something that is not expressed by the source. When Gderrin is providing etymological information, he frequently uses Brown's The Composition of Scientific Words (actually a book recommended by Stearn). Brown does not analyses full compounds in most cases, but provides the orthography and meaning of single words. So in case of tetrandra or octandra Brown only provides information about tetra [sic], okto and aner, but does not explicitely tells us that octandra is comprised of okto and aner and tetrandra of tetra [sic] and aner. Thoses analyses seems to be made by Gderrin himself. This seems like a violation of WP:OR. But maybe you can make clear where our views diverge.
- Using Stearn to explain certain epithets can also be questionable. In case of octandra and tetrandra, we can find the specific epithets. But using Stearn to explain epithets that can not found in full in Stearn, only the possible single parts of the compound, is equally OR. But even when the full epithet is found in Stearn, the possible etymological explanation might be different when combined with different genera. In case, it would be possible, it might be better to track down the etymological explanation of the original authors and use additionally a secondary source (in case the primary source is obfuscated or mistaken). Wimpus (talk) 20:18, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- You wrote
Editors without any knowledge of Greek or Latin can not judge the veracity of these sites properly.
To use your own knowledge of Greek or Latin would be OR. My objection to www.worldagroforestry.org is based on (1) it not being clear who wrote the material, where it was sourced, whether it was published or reviewed (2) internal inconsistencies showing at the least poor copy editing. - In the majority of cases, in my experience of reading the older original literature, from the time when botanists knew Latin, there is no explicit statement of the derivation of the epithet, doubtless because it's regarded as obvious. So all we can do is to say what the epithet means in Botanical Latin where there is a reliable source to support it. It's clearly better to have an explicit explanation of the entire epithet, but no source is going to list every combination of a numerical prefix with a root. So if the epithet is heptandrus, and the author did not provide an explanation, I would be happy to say that hepta- is a prefix meaning "seven" (with a ref) and that in Botanical Latin the stem -andrus refers to stamens (with a source). Readers can decide for themselves whether this is enough to interpret the entire epithet.
- Why do you think that triandrus, for example, would have a different meaning when used with different genus names?
- I feel we've exhausted this subject. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:55, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- Using my own knowledge of Latin and Greek without referring to any source, would be OR. But as you can see, I have tried to include links to different sources. And this is a talk-page, not a specific lemma. I can not think of a specific example for triandrus or something alike, but such a name as Dianthus could be easily misinterpreted as "double-flowered". Or is the source that states that Dianthus is derived from Dios [although the genitive case] and anthos mistaken (cf. διανθής)? Trichoglottis similarly poses problems, as I could explain this as a compound of γλωττίς, but also as a compound of γλῶττα with an additional suffix -ίς, gen. -ίδος (cf. παρωτίς = παρά + οὖς + -ίς). And does Polypodium consists of the diminutive πόδιον or is -ιον a neuter adjectival suffix (as seen in adjectival compounds like ἐπιπόδιος/α/ον: upon the feet)? But also brevistylis can give one a headache. Is it derived from Latin stylus (as corruption of stilus, see Stearn), is Greek στῦλος used, or its diminutive στυλίς? These issues can not be properly solved by some guesstimation based on Stearn. In those cases, only sources that try to explain the whole epithet has to be used. Wimpus (talk) 23:10, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- You cannot explain botanical epithets based on the original Greek, as you keep trying to do above. In an article it would be OR, and anywhere it's frequently misleading. Enough from me. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:20, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- Using my own knowledge of Latin and Greek without referring to any source, would be OR. But as you can see, I have tried to include links to different sources. And this is a talk-page, not a specific lemma. I can not think of a specific example for triandrus or something alike, but such a name as Dianthus could be easily misinterpreted as "double-flowered". Or is the source that states that Dianthus is derived from Dios [although the genitive case] and anthos mistaken (cf. διανθής)? Trichoglottis similarly poses problems, as I could explain this as a compound of γλωττίς, but also as a compound of γλῶττα with an additional suffix -ίς, gen. -ίδος (cf. παρωτίς = παρά + οὖς + -ίς). And does Polypodium consists of the diminutive πόδιον or is -ιον a neuter adjectival suffix (as seen in adjectival compounds like ἐπιπόδιος/α/ον: upon the feet)? But also brevistylis can give one a headache. Is it derived from Latin stylus (as corruption of stilus, see Stearn), is Greek στῦλος used, or its diminutive στυλίς? These issues can not be properly solved by some guesstimation based on Stearn. In those cases, only sources that try to explain the whole epithet has to be used. Wimpus (talk) 23:10, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- You wrote
- @Peter coxhead, which edition do you use of Stearn? I use the third edition, sixth impression. I can not find the specific sections yet, but I recognize Stearn's use of a hyphen to indicate that he is using word forming elements. It is actually a misconception that compounds are (always) based on the genitive cases. Debrunner's Griechische Wortbildungslehre (see here, actually a must-read in case you are interested in compounds in Greek) tells us that they are actually based on the stem. The stem of ἀνήρ ends on r. The -os (=o-stem) in τρἰανδρος is not the same -os as from the genitive case, but a separate (different) suffix. In case the genitive would be used in Greek to form a compound, the sigma would remain, as in Διόσδοτος (an example mentioned by Debrunner) or μυοσωτίς. But these instances in Greek are very rare. In this specific case of triandra we do not know whether the person who have coined the epithet has made a compound by himself or merely Latinized Greek τρἰανδρος (that is a actually a noun). Additionally, mentioning the genitive case, as if it was the nominative case, is quite confusing. The specific form [=orthography] of ancient Greek does not change when providing an etymological explanation of a botanical Latin epithet. The form ἀνδρός is still a genitive case and did not miracously became a nominative case. It might be necessary however, to point to a broadening of meaning in botanical Latin or changes in orthography (stilus -> stylus, piriformis -> pyriformis). Wimpus (talk) 15:16, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Wimpus: two points:
- But I see a clear difference in reporting what a primary source states considering the etymology and what a secondary tells us about the etymology. In the first instance, we can still report that Dean Nicolle thinks that extrico means disentangled or free. That is not incorrect, as he might have actually had that thought process. But it is demonstrably false, if we would state that extrico actually means disentangled or free. See also the remarks of Peter Coxhead in this discussion. So we have to present false etymologies with an additional note and make clear by the wording, that the original author thought that was the specific meaning. But in using secondary sources, we have to be more strict. In secondary sources, the authors might have read the original publication and only paraphrase the original statement, which results in some cases in the propagation of false etymologies. Alternatively, in secondary sources, the authors might have constructed their own etymologies. In case the later is a false etymology, it is actually of no use. For the specific epithet leucocephala, I can find cephalos, cephala, cephalus, kephalos or kephala. Can they all be true? Of course not. We have to try to determine what the original author might have thought and what the real form of head in Greek is. I have checked the publication of De Wit in Taxon (1961), but as leucocephala is not a new epithet and Leucaena leucocephala is a combinatio nova, that is nomenclatorially derived from Lamarck's Mimosa leucocephala, an etymological explanation of leucocephala is therefore lacking in De Wit's publication. As older publications lack most of the time a proper etymological explanation (although I have not checked Lamarck's publication yet), those etymologies that derive leucocephala from cephalos, cephala, kephalos or kephala are merely uninformed guesses. In those cases, we have to delete those false etymologies. Or do I have to add all these false etymologies as equally valid to the Wiki-lemma? Till now, I have only heard from other editors, that the sources I have removed, would be reliable sources and therefore can not be removed. But, are those really reliable sources, as we can find numerous other sources that contradict those statements. In case we leave out classical Latin and ancient Greek from the equation and do not try to in any event, checking with Liddell and Scott's monumental A Greek-English Lexicon, we could be adding etymological non-sense to Wikipedia. Wimpus (talk) 19:42, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
You do not seem to understand - Wikipedia editors do not need any knowledge of Greek or Latin, nor do they need to "judge the veracity of sites". Nobody has to list their qualifications to be an editor here. Gderrin (talk) 10:40, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Gderrin: the first is of course completely correct. The second is not. We do have to judge the reliability of our sources, using such criteria as are given in WP:RS. It's not clear (to me at least) that an entry like Leucaena leucocephala is reliable: who wrote it? was it reviewed? So, like any website, it needs to be treated with caution; the errors Wimpus pointed out do cast doubt on it. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:30, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Gderrin:, today I stumbled on multiple Wiki-lemmata in which you analysed etymologically specific epithets by using Wikitionary as source. In this guideline, it is stated:A wiki-based dictionary that anyone can edit without editorial oversight is not reliable, and that includes Wiktionary. I have removed those sources on a few lemmata, but regarding the other internetsites you have used, we do not always know whether these sites are reliable considering the etymology. Wimpus (talk) 15:30, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- Hi. You turned up on my watchlist with some edits to verticordia, I see there is active discussion on this. I altered the first one I saw to add what Berndt and George state, the latter having literally written a book on botanical Latin I am comfortable with citing that. So without me ploughing through the above discussion, is there a concern with that? cygnis insignis 17:34, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
- Dear Cygnis insignis, thank you for your suggestion. I see that in your edit you have added: derived from Ancient Greek terms for small and foot, based on Berndt. But you did not mentioned which ancient Greek terms for "small" and "foot" are mentioned by Berndt. And when providing etymology, it seems to me imperative to mention the words from which the epithet is derived.
- On this page, Gderrin added with the the same source as you have used: The name Platandra is derived from the Ancient Greek words platy- meaning "flattened" and -andros meaning "male" referring to the flattened anthers. So, it seems that Berndt is providing more etymological in her book. But if the content of this book is rendered truthfully by Gderrin in this edit (but please check), I have some reservations, as platy- and -andros are actually not words, but word-forming element. Maybe Berndt was not paying attention to the existence of certain linguistically separate categories. The proper words are actually πλατύς and ἀνήρ. I also wonder why Berndt has translated πλατύς with "flattened" and not with "flat". Πλατύς is translated by Stearn (Botanical Latin, 1984, p. 278) with "wide", "broad", not with the verbal form: "widened" or "broadened". Can you provide more information on the philological level of this book of Berndt or the book of George (which one actually?). Thank you very much. Wimpus (talk) 19:38, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
- I added the Ancient Greek to the first item,
- then lost interest when you asked me to check that Gderrin had "rendered truthfully", but fwiw platy- can mean "flat" and that is what I expected the epithet to mean. Other than the describing author giving their own etymology, the work is an example of a near flawless reference: the summation of decades of research on the genus, which included Alex George's extensive contribution, and he is qualified to print a guess when the earlier author did not explain what they intended it to mean. cygnis insignis 02:34, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
- I am not entirely conviced. Please read, my comments below. The review of A primer of botanical Latin with vocabulary mentioned: The book is generally accurate but just not quite accurate enough for a reference work. and additionally listed: I can scarcely fault it, but I do question the feminine gender of chromosoma and periderma and the masculine gender of soma, which I think must be neuter like other nouns of Greek origin ending in -ma. I have found in the mean time, a pdf of this first edition on archive.org. And I have found, after a cursory inspection that chromosoma, periderma and soma are not the only mistakes, as cytoplasma, protoplasma, -desma (as band), regma and farina have also been given incorrect genders. There are also a few misattributions of declension classes for -cornu [presented as adj.], tempus, hospes, -oxylon, aerifer, raphe, pseudoraphe, res. And nowhere can one find Greek words, only word-forming elements that are derived from Greek (with Latinized orthography). So it seems, actually lightweight on etymology. Wimpus (talk) 09:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, I read the review out of curiosity, what a mind to be able pick up all that. This is what I expect of the review process, so lacking in modern academic writing, he notes the misprints and exact number of errors in table 2, then finishes with the enticement to plant historians over taxonomists and the helpful note "Since this review was written a reprint of the book has been put in hand which will correct the errors referred to." The work by George I'm referring to was older, not close at hand, and has fallen down my list of things to read. I favour the opinion that botanical Latin should be maintained for plant taxa, so reading the defence of continuing to do so would be interesting, but leave the wrangling on how to all that de- and re-clining to those who publish opinions in a formal way (who I can blame for any error). Have a good one. cygnis insignis 10:11, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
- I am not entirely conviced. Please read, my comments below. The review of A primer of botanical Latin with vocabulary mentioned: The book is generally accurate but just not quite accurate enough for a reference work. and additionally listed: I can scarcely fault it, but I do question the feminine gender of chromosoma and periderma and the masculine gender of soma, which I think must be neuter like other nouns of Greek origin ending in -ma. I have found in the mean time, a pdf of this first edition on archive.org. And I have found, after a cursory inspection that chromosoma, periderma and soma are not the only mistakes, as cytoplasma, protoplasma, -desma (as band), regma and farina have also been given incorrect genders. There are also a few misattributions of declension classes for -cornu [presented as adj.], tempus, hospes, -oxylon, aerifer, raphe, pseudoraphe, res. And nowhere can one find Greek words, only word-forming elements that are derived from Greek (with Latinized orthography). So it seems, actually lightweight on etymology. Wimpus (talk) 09:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Cygnis insignis:, I do think, that you are referring to A primer of botanical Latin with vocabulary of Short and George, isn't it? I am not familiar with this work, but the first parts I could see in Google Books showed large similiarities to Stearn's Botanical Latin. This review states: The book is generally accurate but just not quite accurate enough for a reference work. And are Alex George his own word-forming skills flawless, as the form Verticordia sect. Elachoschista, as explained by George (1991, p. 275) as: Named from the Greek elachys (little, short) and schistos (divided, cleft) seems remarkable, as the two known compounds in ancient Greek with ἐλαχύς have ἐλαχυ- as first part, i.e. ἐλαχυπτέρυξ and ἐλαχύνωτος (and not ἐλαχο-) and when σχιστός is combined with an u-stem word as πλατύς, the υ remains, as in πλατύσχιστος. Elachoschistos, given its etymology, seems also not fully compatible with the remarks of Stearn (1983, p. 268) when he is referring to the International Code: Before a consonant the final vowel is normally preserved in Greek (mono-carpus, Poly-gonum, Coryne-phorus) except that a is commonly replaced by o (Hemerocallis from hemera). This would indicate that usually the -y of the stem remains. I know that there are exceptions in ancient Greek (maybe related to the full or lenghtened grade of the u-stem or the existence of a related s-stem noun), but couldn't be Elachoschista a lapsus calami as he does not mention a certain specific reason to use -o instead of -y? So can we be comfortable with citing George for all etymological matters? Wimpus (talk) 22:17, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
- Unsurprisingly, this is a concern that has been raised before at wikipedia, but the grievance is with living and dead authorities elsewhere and cannot be resolved at wikipedia due to our policies. For example, we are at odds with a definition of platy- before the discussion progressed, my botanical sources give the primary sense as "flat" and you have asserted that can never be, this would be an intractable situation but for our established processes that avoid having to resolve this here by deferring to attributed sources. I have undone one of undos and advise you that I will do so so again with little hesitancy if it is a similar concern, yet hope that you will consider another way to contribute to improvements. cygnis insignis 00:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
- Considering πλατύς, I hace said: I also wonder why Berndt has translated πλατύς with "flattened" and not with "flat". Πλατύς is translated by Stearn (Botanical Latin, 1984, p. 278) with "wide", "broad", not with the verbal form: "widened" or "broadened". So, if you check, other sources, the statement: platy- meaning flattened becomes troublesome. The same with: The specific epithet (halophila) is "named from the Greek hals (salt) and -philus (loving) This implies that -philus is the Greek form. But here or here (for a lemma we have to use other sources) you can read: from Latin -philus, from Greek -philos or New Latin -philus, from Latin, from Greek -philos, which implies that -philus is the Latin form and -philos the Greek form. And if you would check a Greek dictionary (by simply searching for all compounds ending on -philus (-φιλυς) or -philos (-φιλος), you will see that no forms on -philus (-φιλυς) can be found. So currently sources are being used, that are sometimes (and sometimes often) hit-and-miss considering etymology. The work of Bob Chinnock might be impecable considering its descriptions, but considering its etymology with: Latin oppositi, opposite, Greek tetra, four, -andrum, male, Latin parvi, small, Latin brevi, short, Latin cordifolium, heart-shaped leaves, Greek glykos, sweet smelling, Greek, penta, five, -koelium, Greek, eremos, solitary, desert; -philus, loving, Greek strongyl- round, phylla, leaf, this source can not be taken seriously. Maybe you have to check some of these descriptions, to see what is actually incorrect, but everyone in botany would know, that phyllon is "leaf" and phylla is "leaves". It shows that Chinnock might be an expert on Myoporaceae, but considering etymology, he makes rookie mistakes. Wimpus (talk) 07:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Bold, Rvert, Disucuss
You took a bold action. I reverted it. The next step is not to revert back but to discuss. I was just getting ready to ping you to the article talk page. I kindly request that you self-revert until we have discussed the matter on the talk page and come to a consensus. TelosCricket (talk) 18:03, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
Botanical Latin
Hello Wimpus,
I do not expect to change you mind about anything but ....
I think you should know that Alex George, whom you seem to imply invented the name Calothamnus phellosus, is a distiguished Australian botanist. He has taught botanical Latin and has published at least one book on the subject. In the days when botanists were required to write a Latin diagnosis of a new species, they relied on his advice.
I do not intend spending a lot more time checking the edits you make to plant pages but it may help to remember that the people who read Wikipedia pages about plants, are probably doing so to find out something about plants, not about Greek or Latin. I suggest that the rare person who is interested in those languages and reading your edits with probably respond with "Yay!" A plant person would be confused by many of them. A professional botanist (although I doubt many would bother) would either laugh or disparage Wikipedia - they know the reputation of George, Craven, Chinnock and the others.
Before you and I started tussling over these etymologies, most pages (including the one on C. phellosus) had an average of fewer than one reader per day. Seven people looked at the Eremophila acrida page in the last three weeks. So arguing about them is a bit pointless, isn't it? For me, it is much more important to write plant articles that don't exist yet and to expand those that are only stubs (with no etymology). I wish you well. You may find the section "Book Launch" in the article below as interesting as I did. I am sure you will find many etymological errors in it.[2] Gderrin (talk) 09:22, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Hello Gderrin, I have read earlier the Book Launch section. As I stated a few (a lot) sentences ago:
- The review of A primer of botanical Latin with vocabulary mentioned: The book is generally accurate but just not quite accurate enough for a reference work. and additionally listed: I can scarcely fault it, but I do question the feminine gender of chromosoma and periderma and the masculine gender of soma, which I think must be neuter like other nouns of Greek origin ending in -ma.
- I have found in the mean time, a pdf of this first edition on archive.org. And I have found, after a cursory inspection that chromosoma, periderma and soma are not the only mistakes, as cytoplasma, protoplasma, -desma (as band), regma and farina have also been given incorrect genders. There are also a few misattributions of declension classes for -cornu [presented as adj.], tempus, hospes, -oxylon, aerifer, raphe, pseudoraphe, res. And nowhere can one find Greek words, only word-forming elements that are derived from Greek (with Latinized orthography). So it seems, actually lightweight on etymology.
- The review of A primer of botanical Latin with vocabulary mentioned: The book is generally accurate but just not quite accurate enough for a reference work. and additionally listed: I can scarcely fault it, but I do question the feminine gender of chromosoma and periderma and the masculine gender of soma, which I think must be neuter like other nouns of Greek origin ending in -ma.
- And in the mean-time I found a lot more mistakes. I am actually flabbergasted, that those false etymologies, I have encountered the last couple of days, could even be published in journals, without any correction. Although some pages may not be read a lot on Wiki, there are actually multiple Wiki-mirrors, that copy the content (and even some editors are using those Wiki-mirrors as source) and all kind of amateur-sites are also copying content of Wiki. Wimpus (talk) 09:57, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
Acacia biflora
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/30px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png)
Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Hughesdarren (talk) 00:25, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
Flesh fly
It would be terrific if you could make the corrections to the etymologies or Greek transcriptions that you see as incorrect rather than remove contents entirely - you removed something as unsourced and I added what looks like a reasonable source and it can be examined online. Shyamal (talk) 16:57, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Although I appreciate the effort, in case you add information that you can not read (as you have made a copying error: φάγειν instead of φαγεῖν and did not correct the incorrect Romanized script), it would be better to refrain from editing. Wimpus (talk) 22:40, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Currently you are actively removing ANY etymology that you disagree with, while providing reference to what you base the assertion off of. you also refuse to discuss in talk pages anything that is reverted on you, rather you persist in edit-warring. The onus is on you to provide documentation when reverting a contested edit. You are failing at that.--Kevmin § 01:53, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Ornithogalen
You can doubtless read the Gothic face here better than I can (I hate having to try to read old botanical German sources printed this way, and have had to ask German colleagues before now). Is the usage here a German form of the French ornithogale? Is this connected, I wonder, with Obermeyer's use of "e" rather than "o"? Speculative, of course, and not for the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:41, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- "Mit den Ornithogalen". After mit in German (I am actually not German), the dative case is used. Neuter singular is mit dem, neuter plural is mit den. Plurals in German can end on -en, and that form of pluralization can also be used in loanwords. See for a similar example, the declension of Museum in Duden (please scroll down), that writes das Museum (nominative singular), die Museen (nominative plural) and den Museen (dative plural). It also of notice that Ornithogalen is written in Gothic face and amylon (a few lines below) in Roman script. In some older books, the German words are written in Gothic face, and the Latin (or Latinized words) are written in Roman script. As Ornithogalen is written in Gothic face, it might indicate, that the word is eingedeutscht, as it has a German and not a Latin or Greek plural. But this is only speculation, as it could also be a pluralization of the French word. So, I do not know for sure. Wimpus (talk) 20:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- (I understand the German, including the grammar; I just find Gothic face hard to read. Sorry for the assumption about your nationality, based on your occasional use of German words instead of English.) I've now located my copy of H. Gilbert-Carter's Glossary of the British Flora, which I'd mislaid. (It's a book you would like, because it always gives the Greek with full polytonic accents, with the nominative singular and genitive singular where appropriate, unlike Stearn. As a Cambridge University academic and a former Director of the Cambridge University Botanic Garden, Gilbert-Carter knows both the classics and botany. It's a pity his book covers only plants found in the British Isles.) I knew that the general interpretation given to "bird milk" was that it was a euphemism for "bird droppings", but couldn't find what I regarded as a reliable source. Gilbert-Carter definitely is. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:34, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- That seems to be echoed in Foster's (1893) An Illustrated Encyclopedic Medical Dictionary:
- "O. umbellatum, O. vulgare. Fr., ornithogale en ombelles, dame de douze (ou onze) heures, ėtoile blanche (ou de mer). Ger., doldiger Milchstern. Common (or white) star-of-Bethlehem, eleven-o'clock lady, Jack-go-to-bed-at-noon; a species indigenous to western Asia and Europe, and naturalized in North America. The bulbs, radix ornithogali vulgaris, are mucilaginous and slightly bitter, and were formerly used roasted as a healing application to sores, abscesses, etc. They are supposed to be the dove's dung used as food by the people of Samaria (2 Kings, vi, 25), and are still eaten in Palestine.
- "O. umbellatum, O. vulgare. Fr., ornithogale en ombelles, dame de douze (ou onze) heures, ėtoile blanche (ou de mer). Ger., doldiger Milchstern. Common (or white) star-of-Bethlehem, eleven-o'clock lady, Jack-go-to-bed-at-noon; a species indigenous to western Asia and Europe, and naturalized in North America. The bulbs, radix ornithogali vulgaris, are mucilaginous and slightly bitter, and were formerly used roasted as a healing application to sores, abscesses, etc. They are supposed to be the dove's dung used as food by the people of Samaria (2 Kings, vi, 25), and are still eaten in Palestine.
- Foster does not give dove's dung as an etymological explanation for Ornithogalum, as he only refers to ὄρνις, γάλα and to ὀρνιθόγαλον. I could not extract from the Biblical passage (2 Kings, vi, 25) that the dove's dung is related to the Ornithogalum umbellatum.
- That seems to be echoed in Foster's (1893) An Illustrated Encyclopedic Medical Dictionary:
- (I understand the German, including the grammar; I just find Gothic face hard to read. Sorry for the assumption about your nationality, based on your occasional use of German words instead of English.) I've now located my copy of H. Gilbert-Carter's Glossary of the British Flora, which I'd mislaid. (It's a book you would like, because it always gives the Greek with full polytonic accents, with the nominative singular and genitive singular where appropriate, unlike Stearn. As a Cambridge University academic and a former Director of the Cambridge University Botanic Garden, Gilbert-Carter knows both the classics and botany. It's a pity his book covers only plants found in the British Isles.) I knew that the general interpretation given to "bird milk" was that it was a euphemism for "bird droppings", but couldn't find what I regarded as a reliable source. Gilbert-Carter definitely is. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:34, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- from the Septuagint:
- "25 And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an ass’s head was [valued] at fifty pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove’s dung at five pieces of silver."
- "καὶ ἐγένετο λιμὸς μέγας ἐν Σαμαρείᾳ, καὶ ἰδοὺ περιεκάθηντο ἐπ᾿ αὐτήν, ἕως οὗ ἐγενήθη κεφαλὴ ὄνου πεντήκοντα σίκλων ἀργυρίου καὶ τέταρτον τοῦ κάβου κόπρου περιστερῶν πέντε σίκλων ἀργυρίου."
- In Payne, 2017, you can read about the use of the expression bird's milk as something expressing rare as hen's teeth and related to crop milk, also known as pigeon’s milk. Whether this pigeon’s milk is related to dove's dung is unfortunately not discussed. She does not reach to a conclusion on Ornithogalum umbellatum, but she presents some interesting loose ends. But does Gilbert-Carter's Glossary of the British Flora give more information why it would be a euphemism for bird's droppings and does he relate it to the Biblical dove's dung?
- Regarding the orthography: Pliny's ornithogale, presupposes a Greek form ὀρνιθογάλη that is mentioned by Lewis & Short, but not by Liddell & Scott and is also absent in Oxford Latin Dictionary's ornithogale-lemma. Saalfeld's Tensaurus Italograecus marks this form with an asterisk, indicating that it is a reconstructed form. I could not find the asterisk in the online version, nor in my own physical copy of Lewis & Short. I thought that Pliny's ornithogale might be the source of French ornithogale, but the information from Larousse's Noveau dictionairre étymologique (1964) seems inconclusive as it points to the form ornitogalon from 1553 and ornitogale from 1680. It does not make clear whether the second form evolved from the first form or was a new loan (from Pliny's ornithogale). Wimpus (talk) 09:34, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- And actually this source, source, source, and this source seem to corroborate the notion that Ornithogallum has something to do with avian excrements. Also of notice, is the Greek word ὀρνιθία, that means poisoning by bird-dung. It could be that not bird-dung is intended, but a poisonous species of Ornithogalum, but that is highly speculative, and is only a vista that can be explored later on. Wimpus (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- Gilbert-Carter just says that the flowers of Ornithogalum nutans resemble bird droppings, without further explanation (the book has very short entries for each headword). If you look at the flowers, they are greyish green in the centre with white edges, which is somewhat like bird droppings, so it has plausibility. Somewhere I've read the explanation that the white flowers of species like Ornithogalum umbellatum, which grow facing upwards, often among grass, look like splashes of bird droppings, but I can't find the source right now. How far all of these 'explanations' are just speculations copied from one source to the next is an interesting question; I'd like to see an explanation in a much older source (e.g. Theophrastus, Dioscorides, or similar). However, it's clear that multiple reliable sources give the bird droppings explanation, whether it's ultimately right or not, so it's reasonable to include it in the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:59, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- Pigeon's milk, according to Dr. Brewer, is the regurgitated food given to nestlings. It is also a fictional liquid, an errand for the gullible. ~ cygnis insignis 12:42, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- Gilbert-Carter just says that the flowers of Ornithogalum nutans resemble bird droppings, without further explanation (the book has very short entries for each headword). If you look at the flowers, they are greyish green in the centre with white edges, which is somewhat like bird droppings, so it has plausibility. Somewhere I've read the explanation that the white flowers of species like Ornithogalum umbellatum, which grow facing upwards, often among grass, look like splashes of bird droppings, but I can't find the source right now. How far all of these 'explanations' are just speculations copied from one source to the next is an interesting question; I'd like to see an explanation in a much older source (e.g. Theophrastus, Dioscorides, or similar). However, it's clear that multiple reliable sources give the bird droppings explanation, whether it's ultimately right or not, so it's reasonable to include it in the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:59, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- And actually this source, source, source, and this source seem to corroborate the notion that Ornithogallum has something to do with avian excrements. Also of notice, is the Greek word ὀρνιθία, that means poisoning by bird-dung. It could be that not bird-dung is intended, but a poisonous species of Ornithogalum, but that is highly speculative, and is only a vista that can be explored later on. Wimpus (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
- Regarding the orthography: Pliny's ornithogale, presupposes a Greek form ὀρνιθογάλη that is mentioned by Lewis & Short, but not by Liddell & Scott and is also absent in Oxford Latin Dictionary's ornithogale-lemma. Saalfeld's Tensaurus Italograecus marks this form with an asterisk, indicating that it is a reconstructed form. I could not find the asterisk in the online version, nor in my own physical copy of Lewis & Short. I thought that Pliny's ornithogale might be the source of French ornithogale, but the information from Larousse's Noveau dictionairre étymologique (1964) seems inconclusive as it points to the form ornitogalon from 1553 and ornitogale from 1680. It does not make clear whether the second form evolved from the first form or was a new loan (from Pliny's ornithogale). Wimpus (talk) 09:34, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
a lead sentence
Hi, I strayed here to solicit an opinion. This is the lead sentence to an article:
The '''thylacine''' ({{IPAc-en|ˈ|θ|aɪ|l|ə|s|iː|n}} {{respell|THY|lə-seen}},<ref>{{cite book | title = Macquarie ABC Dictionary | publisher=The Macquarie Library Pty Ltd. | year = 2003 | page = 1032 | isbn = 978-1-876429-37-9}}</ref> or {{IPAc-en|ˈ|θ|aɪ|l|ə|s|aɪ|n}} {{respell|THY|lə-syne}},<ref>{{OED|thylacine}}</ref> also {{IPAc-en|ˈ|θ|aɪ|l|ə|s|ᵻ|n}};<ref>[https://archive.is/20120713232932/http://dictionary.classic.reference.com/browse/thylacine "thylacine"]. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 30 May 2009.</ref> from Ancient Greek θύλακος thúlakos, "pouch, sack" + Latin -inus "-ine") (''Thylacinus cynocephalus''), now [[extinct]], is one of the largest known [[carnivorous marsupial]]s,
I love nomenclature, so it is fascinating to get these facts first, but I write for readers who want quick and dirty facts with access to deeper information. Your opinion, if it pleases you to give it, my new Dutch friend. ~ cygnis insignis 12:06, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, and I redirected your user page to your talk page, but you can ask for that to be deleted if it doesn't suit you. ~ cygnis insignis 12:09, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
- Dear cygnis insignis, the link you have used (but probably also your other source), seems to correctly identify θύλακος.
- A few question|remarks:
- You have translitterated θύλακος as thúlakos, that is also my preference. But it seems that most people on EN-Wikipedia use υ -> y instead. I have therefore suppressed my preference and use on EN-wikipedia υ -> y instead. DO you know, whether it is actually necessary to use υ -> y on EN-Wikipedia?
- Your second source mentions: < Latin -īnus, -inus < Greek -inos. This is correct for crystallinus [>crystalline], derived from κρυστάλλινος. But I doubt whether that is also correct for the other two words mentioned, i.e. equinus [>equine] and marinus [>marine]. In these words, Latin -inus is not derived from Greek -ινος, but is actually a native Latin suffix. I do not know whether the author that coined Thylacinus made use of the native Latin suffix or the Greek suffix -ινος. In the latter case, my preference would be to mention the Greek form -ινος, as you are also mentioning the Greek form θύλακος and not some Neolatin form thylacus. Does your first source indicate whether Greek suffix -ινος was intended, or the native Latin suffix -inus? Wimpus (talk) 16:57, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
- Apologies, I can try to address what you ask, but I didn't create the lead sentence. I should have been explicit: is it useful to our reader to have this information first and foremost, before even stating what the article topic is about, a carnivorous marsupial. It is interesting to you, and to me as much as I can glean, but how important is it?
- The citation to the first description of the genus is messy, but this is where Temminck describes what he was up to Monographie de mammalogie … p.60 et seq The authors who preceded Temminck published cynocephalus and everyone discussed the anatomical resemblance to the familiar dog / wolf and doubt anybody bothered to define the etymology of that. Later authors combined cinus with words from local languages for a dozen new species of Thylacinidae that were dug up, referring to the name of the genus and family, and I only recall the stem kynos being noted in the Latinised form. I will see what else I can find. Cheers ~ cygnis insignis 03:00, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
- Ad 1: It is not that important. But in case your first source was very clear, that it would derive from Greek -ινος, it would be better to refer to -ινος directly.
- Ad 2: The stem is actually not kynos, but kyn-/kun-, as the nominative case is κύων [=kuōn] (=dog) and the genitive case is κυνός [kunos] (= of a dog). The Latinized from of the stem would be cyn-. The -o- is a so-called connecting vowel, that follows the -n- of the stem, when the second part of the word, begins with a consonant. The adjectivw κυνάνθρωπος/ον [=kunanthrōpos/on] (relating to dog-man) (see also here) has no connecting vowel as the second word (ἄνθρωπος = anthrōpos) begins with a vowel. So, that connecting vowel is not part of the stem in this case. The adjective and nominalized adjective κυνοκέφαλος [=kunokephalos] (=dog-headed) was already used by the ancient Greeks, but of course, not for Thylacinus cynocephalus. Wimpus (talk) 09:09, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, thank you, I should have known that, those kind of slips is why I rely on published to state these things for me. I suppose I ought to have said transliterated as "kynos", not latinised. My only familiarity with Latin and Greek is from reading natural history and transcribing the bits that pepper older texts, and as I say, can roughly read other languages if it is about science, but it is becoming clearer that learning Latin is something I should try again. And I had forgotten about dog-headed men, and made a note to look into that again. I'm am a bit embarrassed that I am not able to give you a more interesting reply, but thank you again for yours. ~ cygnis insignis 10:02, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Disruptive editing
You have repeatedly deleted reliable sources as defined here over a long period, from plant articles such as [1] [[2] and [3] and you have not engaged in consensus building with other editors. In spite of being asked not to revert articles without building consensus on an article talk page, you have nevertheless rereverted. I am advising you that I consider these to be signs of disruptive editing. Gderrin (talk) 08:48, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- It is quite disruptive if you add etymological information, and you do not know an iota what is actually intended by the authors. Misinterpretation of sources is detrimental to Wikipedia. Wimpus (talk) 09:19, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- What is disruptive is editing without consensus and disregarding the efforts of other editors to reach a consensus. Please stop. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:32, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- Have you seen the edits of Gderrin, that clearly shows that he is again misinterpreting sources? I can explain that ores- is not a compound but part of a compound (see here), but actually that seems a waste of energy. A topic-ban for Gderrin for etymological edits would be more effective. I have amply demonstrated before, that he has overflooded Wikipedia with incorrect interpretations of certain sources. Wimpus (talk) 09:38, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- Whether you, or indeed I, think that Gderrin's edit is correct is not the point. Wikipedia:Consensus requires editors to seek to reach consensus by discussion. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:52, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- So, I have to reach consensus with someone that does not know what a compound is? Maybe I can add all kind of Arab etymological sources, while admitting that I am not able to read Arab at all.Wimpus (talk) 09:56, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, in editing Wikipedia you have to try to reach consensus with editors with different backgrounds and expertise. (By the way, Stearn – an utterly impeccable source – says "oreo-, ores-: in Gk. comp., pertaining to mountains", and gives oreophilus as an example. I think Stearn alone would be a sufficient source in this particular case.) Peter coxhead (talk) 10:08, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- So, I have to reach consensus with someone that does not know what a compound is? Maybe I can add all kind of Arab etymological sources, while admitting that I am not able to read Arab at all.Wimpus (talk) 09:56, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- Whether you, or indeed I, think that Gderrin's edit is correct is not the point. Wikipedia:Consensus requires editors to seek to reach consensus by discussion. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:52, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- Have you seen the edits of Gderrin, that clearly shows that he is again misinterpreting sources? I can explain that ores- is not a compound but part of a compound (see here), but actually that seems a waste of energy. A topic-ban for Gderrin for etymological edits would be more effective. I have amply demonstrated before, that he has overflooded Wikipedia with incorrect interpretations of certain sources. Wimpus (talk) 09:38, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
- What is disruptive is editing without consensus and disregarding the efforts of other editors to reach a consensus. Please stop. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:32, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved.
Edits of 66.90.153.184
Thanks for catching the source on the brachypelma article- i misidentified Greek as latin, due to a misreading of the reference materials. I have corrected it to read that the "Brachy-" prefix derives from Greek. 66.90.153.184 (talk) 08:37, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- But the edit is OR, as you did not use a source that explained the full compound. Your other recent edits seems to be similar OR-etymologies. Why did you referred in Acentropelma to Latin "Centro-" (upper-case is unnecessary), while ancient Greek κέντρον would be more plausible? Or why did you referred to Italian here? Wimpus (talk) 08:44, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Wimpus: although I agree that the edits explaining brachypelma have an element of OR, see the article now + the comments I made at User talk:Peter coxhead#Brachypelma. I think that the meaning of the components, plus the original description of the genus by Simon, do make it acceptably clear that the overall meaning is 'short leg' (presumably meant as a noun in apposition). Pelma seems to be used in connection with tarantulas to mean 'leg'. The earliest use I've found is by Ausserer (1871), whose description of the new genus Chaetopelma in Latin has "pedibus elongatis" but who then says in German "Die Füsse lang, schmächtig". Ausserer consistently uses Fuß to mean 'leg' thoughout the work; for example, he gives leg formulae (the leg number from the longest first) like "Füsse 4, 3, 2, 1". So this may be why he used "pelma" rather than something derived from πούς to produce chaetopelma meaning 'bristle-like leg'. Then other workers followed this pattern. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:02, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- Dear Peter coxhead, I really do appreciate your effort. But are the "legs" or are the scopulae of the spider intended? Here you can read (p. 153) : "The -pelma- of Koch, 1850 meaning "sole of the foot", "scopula" with the first part of the name indicating the state or characteristics of the scopula (eg. [sic] Brachypelma, Sericopelma, Acanthopelma, etc." and (p. 155) "So Brachypelma means "with a short scopula"." Whether it is a noun in apposition or nominalized adjective can not be reliably asserted as δίπελμος/ον and μονόπελμος/ον are also attested in ancient Greek. Without a source to explain the full compound, it is difficult to achieve certainty in specific cases, although your modus operandi to check the original publication and try to extract the intended meaning, is laudable. Wimpus (talk) 10:45, 29 September 2019 (UTC) I checked probaly ten other sources first (and did not found the whole compound), before finding this source.
- Those other pelma-genera seem to be mentioned in this article. Maybe, this article could be used as source for the etymology, instead of a referece to dictionary.com. Although I have not studied this article carefully enough (or checked with other sources), to make well-informed edits yet. Wimpus (talk) 11:01, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- Ah, good find! I had only traced the use of "pelma" in genus names back to Ausserer (1871), but on reflection, that was because I was mistakenly only looking at genus names in current use. Looking at now obsolete names, it does seem that Eurypelma may be the oldest, so Koch (1850) should be the starting point. So far, I can't see where Koch explicitly uses "pelma" for scopula as Estrada-Alvarez & Cameron (2012) claim. Indeed, Koch muddies the waters a little, because he describes the genus Eurypelma as "Die Sammetbürste der Fussohlen sehr breit" ('the scopulae of the soles of the feet very wide'), so using the German for scopulae (Sammetbürste, lit. velvet brushes) and for sole of the foot (Fussohle, more usually spelt Fußsohle). However, it is reasonable to infer that he meant Eurypelma to mean 'wide scopula' rather than 'wide foot-sole', but it seems still to be an inference.
- So we could use Estrada-Alvarez & Cameron (2012) for all the -pelma names, but I'd really like to find a more direct source for pelma = scopula. And I think that it's clear that later workers did interpret it differently, using it either to mean 'leg' or just as a term used in tarantula names, as Estrada-Alvarez and Cameron say. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:13, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- "I'd really like to find a more direct source pelma = scopula"
- I tried to find a source that equated scopula with pelma, but have not found it yet. But, otherwise, when the scopula is wide, the sole of the foot might be similarly wide. But that is merely speculation.
- Linnaeus uses pedes to refer to the legs of the spider. Maybe, the usage of Füße in the work of Koch, could mirror Linnaeus' use of pedes. Alternatively, in South-German and Austrian, Fuß is also used to refer to Bein (=leg) (in humans), see 1b (but as you already notices, pes is the common word in Latin to refer to a spider's leg). As I am not that familiar with spider anatomy, is the sole of the foot, the underside of the tarsus in spiders? Wimpus (talk) 18:24, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- "I'd really like to find a more direct source pelma = scopula"
- Those other pelma-genera seem to be mentioned in this article. Maybe, this article could be used as source for the etymology, instead of a referece to dictionary.com. Although I have not studied this article carefully enough (or checked with other sources), to make well-informed edits yet. Wimpus (talk) 11:01, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
- Dear Peter coxhead, I really do appreciate your effort. But are the "legs" or are the scopulae of the spider intended? Here you can read (p. 153) : "The -pelma- of Koch, 1850 meaning "sole of the foot", "scopula" with the first part of the name indicating the state or characteristics of the scopula (eg. [sic] Brachypelma, Sericopelma, Acanthopelma, etc." and (p. 155) "So Brachypelma means "with a short scopula"." Whether it is a noun in apposition or nominalized adjective can not be reliably asserted as δίπελμος/ον and μονόπελμος/ον are also attested in ancient Greek. Without a source to explain the full compound, it is difficult to achieve certainty in specific cases, although your modus operandi to check the original publication and try to extract the intended meaning, is laudable. Wimpus (talk) 10:45, 29 September 2019 (UTC) I checked probaly ten other sources first (and did not found the whole compound), before finding this source.
- @Wimpus: although I agree that the edits explaining brachypelma have an element of OR, see the article now + the comments I made at User talk:Peter coxhead#Brachypelma. I think that the meaning of the components, plus the original description of the genus by Simon, do make it acceptably clear that the overall meaning is 'short leg' (presumably meant as a noun in apposition). Pelma seems to be used in connection with tarantulas to mean 'leg'. The earliest use I've found is by Ausserer (1871), whose description of the new genus Chaetopelma in Latin has "pedibus elongatis" but who then says in German "Die Füsse lang, schmächtig". Ausserer consistently uses Fuß to mean 'leg' thoughout the work; for example, he gives leg formulae (the leg number from the longest first) like "Füsse 4, 3, 2, 1". So this may be why he used "pelma" rather than something derived from πούς to produce chaetopelma meaning 'bristle-like leg'. Then other workers followed this pattern. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:02, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
There does seem to have been a shift in the word used to match the Greek and Latin pod and ped components. Thus the German for "arthropod" (jointed leg) is de:Gliederfüßer, which will be an old coinage, whereas the modern German article on spiders at de:Webspinnen uses only Bein. (What's the difference between poot/poten which the Dutch article nl:Spinnen (dieren) uses, and been/benen which is what I thought was the Dutch for leg?) I had already thought that if the scopula is wide then the part of the leg bearing it must also be, so I agree with your speculative comment above.
It's not clear to me what the German arachnologists meant by Fußsohle/Fussolhe. If Fuß means 'leg', then presumably all or part of the underside of the leg – the ventral surface in modern English terminology – is meant. It won't just be the tarsus. I need to contact a German-speaking arachnologist – I think I have a contact. I'll post here if I get a response. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:21, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Lewis and Short, when translating "pes": "The leg (late Lat.), in phrase: pedem frangere, Aug. Civ. Dei, 22, 22, 3; id. Serm. 273, 7.".
- Liddell & Scott, when translating πούς: "but also of the leg with the foot, as χείρ for the arm and hand".
- So, confusing foot and leg, seems to be not that uncommon. In Dutch been/benen are used for humans and poot/poten for animals (except for horses, as we consider them as noble animals). Poot is however not a cognate of pes or πούς, but is related to English paw (see here). When using such a vulgar expression in Dutch as "Je staat op mijn poten" (= You are standing on my "poten"), were are not referring to one's legs, but to one's feet.
- Actually with "underside of the tarsus", I tried to refer to the contact area of the tarsus with the ground. In ancient Greek however, ταρσὸς ποδός can also mean: "flat of the foot. the part between the toes and the heel", which seems to be the the sole of the foot. And in this German Wiki-lemma Insektenbein, one can read: "Fuß (Tarsus, griech. tarsos = Fußsohle". Maybe, Fußsohle is used synonymously with tarsus. But, a German arachnologist could provide a more definitive answer. Wimpus (talk) 10:59, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Modern Greek uses πόδι for both leg and foot and χέρι for both arm and hand, by the way.
- I had a very quick response from a German-speaking arachnologist, who also referred me to the German version of one of the major books on spiders, Rainer F. Foelix (1992), Biologie der Spinnen (which I only had in English). (Foelix is Swiss, I think.) Foelix uses Fuß for "tarsus" as per de:Insektenbein; thus book's index has "Fuß s. Tarsus". Foelix does not use the term Fußohle at all, nor Sammetbürste. My correspondent says he would read the whole phrase "Sammetbürste der Fussohlen" as "scopulae" – scopulae are defined by Foelix as the brushes of hairs at the end of the tarsi (although other sources use "scopula" for hair groupings elsewhere, e.g. Pocock (1901) refers to "plumose scopula on posterior side of trochanter of palp"). I've found several sources using "tarsal scopula" and "scopula" interchangeably, e.g. here. So I think it's clear that what Koch means by "Sammetbürste der Fussohlen" is, if spelt out, "velvet hairs at the end of tarsi" = "tarsal scopulae" = "scopulae".
- So where does this leave us? Did Koch use pelma to mean the whole of his descriptive phrase, or just the Fußsohle bit? I.e. did he use Eurypelma for "wide tarsal end" or "wide tarsal scopula"? The truth seems to be that we don't know. We could here use Estrada-Alvarez and Cameron's slightly evasive: "An important term in this family is the Greek neuter noun "pelma" (stem pelmatos) meaning "sole of the foot", which in arachnological convention indicates the state or characteristics of the scopula." They don't actually say that "pelma" means "scopula" in spider genus names, just that it by "convention indicates". Hmmm...
- (I trust you noted the claim that "pelmatos" is the stem of "pelma". :-) ) Peter coxhead (talk) 12:05, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response. This statement: "An important term in this family is the Greek neuter noun "pelma" (stem pelmatos) meaning "sole of the foot", which in arachnological convention indicates the state or characteristics of the scopula." would avoid claiming that scopula and pelma are the same (which is actually questionable). So, it seems like a good solution! Although I would replace "stem" by "genitive" :-) Wimpus (talk) 12:39, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- Pelma is originally an n-stem, just like other words on -μα, such as αἷμα = blood, κῦμα = wave, σχῆμα = figure. That explains compounds like ἀναίμων/ον = bloodless, ἀκύμων = waveless, εὐσχήμων/ον = elegant in figure. In Proto-Indo-European, the stem ends on -mn (with a vocalized -n-) and vocalized -n- becomes -α- in ancient Greek. In Latin, a short -e- was inserted, hence words on -men, like nomen (cf. ὄνυμα/ὄνομα). In compounding, a last vowel can change from zero-grade (-mn is the zerograde of e-ablaut -men or o-ablaut -mon) to o-ablaut or from e-ablaut (with vowel-lengthening) to o-ablaut (e.g. γαστήρ -> γλωσσογάστωρ,πατήρ -> ἀπάτωρ). In Latin, -mn became extended in -mentum, which seems to add a to-suffix. The -t- in the oblique cases in πέλμα seems to be a similar process.
I have now written this up at Tarantula#The element pelma in genus names. Please have a look. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:45, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
Edit warring
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/30px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png)
Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
You are edit warring on Eucalyptus leprophloia. Read WP:3RR and await the completion of the discussion. Hughesdarren (talk) 10:51, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
- You really need to read WP:3RR or you will be blocked. Gderrin has answered your questions you need to patiently wait his reply to your comments rather than reply on the talk page and immediately revert the text. Hughesdarren (talk) 10:56, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
- Shouldn't Gderrin first discuss these issues, before making this edit (or this edit or this one)? Gderrin seems to make edits, while some issues are still undecided as Gderrin seems to be unable to clearly indicate what is intended by his sources. Wimpus (talk) 11:06, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
- Gderrin is attempting to address the issues instead of just reverting. You need to self revert your last change or you will be in violation of 3RR. Hughesdarren (talk) 11:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
- Shouldn't Gderrin first discuss these issues, before making this edit (or this edit or this one)? Gderrin seems to make edits, while some issues are still undecided as Gderrin seems to be unable to clearly indicate what is intended by his sources. Wimpus (talk) 11:06, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
- You really need to read WP:3RR or you will be blocked. Gderrin has answered your questions you need to patiently wait his reply to your comments rather than reply on the talk page and immediately revert the text. Hughesdarren (talk) 10:56, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
November 2019
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Stop_hand_nuvola.svg/30px-Stop_hand_nuvola.svg.png)
Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. JarrahTree 21:43, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- wikipedia is about accessible material for verification WP:V , not some obscure foreign language WP:POINTy edits. If you havent caught on to that yet, I am not sure why you are editing in english wikipedia? JarrahTree 21:52, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- It is not an improvement: -
,[1]
The average editor does not read or speak dutch, and it is very pointy. Not an improvement. Read WP:3RR please, for your own sake. JarrahTree 22:01, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- accusing me of trolling to simply clarify that this is english wikipedia and we do not use dutch language language materials is so ironic in view of your editing. I leave it up to others decide, your assertions do not fit WP:AGF. JarrahTree 22:04, 2 November 2019 (UTC)