Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chester Yacht Club

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Discussion on whether the article should be re-scoped to be about the week can continue editorially, but there is no consensus to delete the material. Star Mississippi 13:38, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Chester Yacht Club

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The club is not notable Bruxton (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Transportation and Canada. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 02:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:13, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The club is very notable. It hosts Chester Race Week which is Canada's largest keelboat regatta. Fairly notable if you are aware of keelboat racing... I think the assumption that it isn't notable is fairly ignorant. NovaScotia06 (talk) 15:03, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@NovaScotia06 You are allowed to have a !vote. You can !vote by indicating "Keep" and bolding it like everyone else did below. Whatever the outcome, thank you for contribution to Wikipedia. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:19, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The article's author states above that the club is "fairly notable if you are aware of keelboat racing", but is it notable in the Wikipedia sense? I'm not finding significant coverage in reliable sources; there appears to be one book about the club available on Amazon, but it looks to be published by a vanity press. I'm not finding much in the way of in-depth coverage about the regatta either. I am willing to reconsider if sourcing toward WP:GNG can be provided, but as it stands, there isn't much on which to base an article. --Kinu ^t/_c 18:39, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'm finding coverage for many seasons of this club, in major papers. An example is ProQuest 1924251146 in the The Chronicle Herald. Combined with the national coverage in the G&M article referenced in the article, GNG is met. Nfitz (talk) 19:36, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nfitz, can you explain further how the article you've linked to - which is about a boat race with comments provided by someone affiliated - meets NCORP's criteria for in-depth information on the *organization* WP:CORPDEPTH from some not affiliated with the org WP:ORGIND? Thank you. HighKing⁺⁺ 21:08, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The entire article, as you can see, is an in-depth discussion of Chester Race Week; even noting it's history back to 1856. Perhaps this article should be renamed Chester Race Week - but GNG is easily met. Nfitz (talk) 22:28, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think that's the point being raised also by Jumpytoo. The source fails to establish notability of the topic organization - which is what is required to establish the notability of said organization. That source arguably cannot be used to establish notability of the race or the race week either as all of the information originates from people affiliated with this topic and is therefore considered a PRIMARY source (yes, even though it was published in a SECONDARY source, the content itself and the information is not independent). HighKing⁺⁺ 15:31, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep with 100 plus years history it looks notable. --Morpho achilles (talk) 06:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment @Nfitz and Morpho achilles: I struggle to find anything that gets us close to WP:NORG. We need some in depth coverage that is not from the organization. Nfitz has called out references but I cannot access them. Morpho achilles you just state it is old. I am happy to withdraw the nomination if such in depth coverage of this organization exists. Bruxton (talk) 22:00, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proquest access is available to virtually everyone through Wikipedia Library. WP:CONRED suggests using Wikipedia Library WP:BEFORE nominating. Perhaps not necessary for a very recent subject, but I'd think that it be mandatory for a 100+ year old subject! Nfitz (talk) 22:53, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: Maybe you might consider summarizing? You also reference The Chronicle Herald but you link no reference. My own WP:BEFORE has not uncovered enough for WP:NORG. I have two newspaper accounts which go back 300 years and there is nothing. A notable private club would have in depth coverage. Bruxton (talk) 00:36, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Proquest article was for the Chronicle Herald. Lots of articles - look at this search. Nfitz (talk) 05:45, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bruxton if the references provided by @Nfitz aren't satisfying I think I will change my vote. Morpho achilles (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz and Morpho achilles: Thank you for the link, I found the same, I only find articles about races in relation to the club. Nothing about the club itself. None of the references discuss the club, we need analysis, investigation, and fact checking which are attributable to a source which is not the club. I have not found that yet. I will leave the AfD nomination for others to discuss. Bruxton (talk) 14:01, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment No opinion on notability, but article could be redirected to Chester, Nova Scotia#Attractions and recreation. Another option is to create an article on Chester Race Week, which is closer to the primary topic of the sources in the article. Jumpytoo Talk 20:35, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete None of the sources come even close to meeting NCORP criteria for establishing notability. There might be a case made that the race is notable though but that's a different topic. HighKing⁺⁺ 21:08, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As GNG is met for the annual regatta, it doesn't need to meet NCORP (I don't know if it does or not - I don't play much in that area). Nfitz (talk) 22:28, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is too early to say that GNG "is met" for the annual regatta just yet. We are only evaluating the notability of the yacht club for now. HighKing⁺⁺ 15:32, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't right. WP:NCORP doesn't apply to sports teams. The guideline specifically says, "The scope of this guideline covers all groups of people organized together for a purpose with the exception of non-profit educational institutions, religions or sects, and sports teams." Even if you were to argue that a yacht club is more of a "club", the guideline to apply would be the alternate criteria for WP:CLUB. The notability guideline for sports teams is WP:NTEAM, which points you back to WP:GNG, unless alternative criteria are specified; for sailing, they are not. Cielquiparle (talk) 09:31, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For me, it is a club and not a simple team. The club has a constitution and by-laws, assets, club house, non-competitive members, employees, other assets like cranes, storage, leases etc. So CLUB is the appropriate section of the NCORP guidelines. We can verify their non-profit status from this link where the club received emergency funding and also a small grant for Chester Race Week which also says it is non-profit. WP:CLUB is part of NCORP so we're still looking for sources that meet NCORP criteria. None of the sources meet either NCORP or GNG for the *club*. Not sure why you say that isn't "right"? HighKing⁺⁺ 13:37, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep on the basis that Chester Yacht Club (CYC) satisfies WP:CLUB as a nationally well-known local organization, with significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, over the club’s 120-year history. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:20, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Independent reliable sources establishing notability, which are also outside Nova Scotia:

Wayne O’Leary, The Tancook Schooners: An Island and Its Boats (1994), published by McGill-Queen’s University Press, which has several pages on the early history of the Chester Yacht Club, including information on its role in the local economy, and its influence in boat building
1956 Ottawa Citizen feature article on a model yacht event for children at the Chester Yacht Club (based on journalist’s own observations of, and information gathered on, the event, plus one quote)
2001 article in The Kingston Whig-Standard (Ontario), which dedicates several paragraphs to the Chester Yacht Club’s participation ahead of the 29er World Championship on Lake Ontario, with all 5 of CYC’s 29er skiffs competing among 62 boats (includes quotes from 2 club members and coach, but also quote from external source, plus information compiled from other sources; neutral and balanced in tone)

Significant coverage in reliable sources outside Chester, Nova Scotia, which are less independent due to heavy reliance on interviews and quotes:

CBC News (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation), “Sailing Saunders brothers take Chester, N.S., along to Rio” (pre-2016 Olympics article in which they describe their history with CYC)
Sail Canada, 2022 Q&A interview on Saunders brothers’ Dinghy Locker Initiative together with CYC

Significant coverage in other sources to be cited with extra care due to indeterminate independence:

Sailors and Rattling Teacups: A History of the Chester Yacht Club (2006) (published by “Community Books”, no reviews, no author bio available, probably available at NovaScotia06’s local library if you are in NS) https://www.amazon.ca/Sailors-Rattling-Teacups-History-Chester/dp/189649658X
2016 Canadian Yachting article on history of Chester Race Week and CYC by Claudette Sapp (author of book above)
Canadian Yachting profile on Chester Yacht Club by writer Katherine Stone (reads like a promotional piece)
Canadian Geographic article on Chester mentioning CYC by Sir Christopher Ondaatje (writer who is a CYC member and by Wikipedia's definition not independent)

In total, there is sufficient coverage to justify coverage of this yacht club. The article page still needs expansion, but could easily incorporate more information about Chester Race Week, CYC’s IOD fleet, and competitive yacht racing by the club historically and in more recent years, from these and many other sources that are available. Cielquiparle (talk) 08:00, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As per WP:SIRS, each source must meet *all* the NCORP criteria. Your descriptions and assertions about those sources are extremely misleading and despite our discussion above, you appear to have decided to ignore large swathes of NCORP including CORPDEPTH and ORGIND. Perhaps I'm not seeing whatever it is you're picking up but it isn't obvious to me. You're going to need to point out which paragraphs in which article you believe meets NCORP because for me, the quality is poor and most are mentions-in-passing or commentary on an event where the club is mentioned in some fashion or commentary on one or other of the teams (but not the club).

The Tancook Schooners: An Island and Its Boats (1994) does *not* have "several pages" on the early history of the club, and I believe you are misinterpreting mentions of "Chester" as a reference to the club instead of the area. For example, the History of the Club at the website clearly establishes that boats were build at Chester by various people and not all connected with the club. Also, seeing as much of pages 46 and 47 refer to dates prior to 1902 (when the club was formed), this is another indication that you've misinterpreted what the book is saying. At best, there are two mentions-in-passing to the yacht club, fails CORPDEPTH.
1956 Ottawa Citizen likewise has not a shred of in-depth information on the club and is a brief description of an event for young sailors which is *sponsored* by the club. Fails CORPDEPTH.
29er World Championships article says almost nothing about the club other than the fact that 5 of the 7 29er skiffs in Nova Scotia are sailed out of this club (fails CORPDEPTH).
“Sailing Saunders brothers take Chester, N.S., along to Rio” relies entirely on interview/information from club members, fails ORGIND, and is focused on the sailors not on the club and contains almost no information about the club, fails CORPDEPTH
2022 Q&A interview on Saunders brothers’ Dinghy Locker Initiative together with CYC is a verbatim interview with a club member, fails ORGIND.
Sailors and Rattling Teacups: A History of the Chester Yacht Club (2006) was published by “Community Books” which doesn't appear to have any profile and is likely a publisher for self-publishing, written by Claudette Sapp (who is mentioned as a member on the website here. Probably fails WP:RS and definitely fails WP:ORGIND.
2016 Canadian Yachting article by Claudette Sapp so also fails WP:ORGIND
Canadian Yachting profile on Chester Yacht Club is a puff profile and relies entirely on information provided by the club and their members, fails ORGIND
Canadian Geographic article on Chester by Sir Christopher Ondaatje who is a CYC member and therefore is affiliated with the topic organization and fails ORGIND

It would be helpful if in future you try to only link to the best WP:THREE sources that you believe meets NCORP. I'm not hopeful, given the paucity of the sources produced above, that notabilty has been established by the above sourcing. HighKing⁺⁺ 15:11, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@HighKing: To clarify: Yes, I only submitted three (3) sources at the very top which meet WP:CLUB, which is part of the Alternate criteria for specific types of organizations, which clearly states:

The following sections discuss alternate methods for establishing notability in specific situations. No organization is considered notable except to the extent that independent sources demonstrate that it has been noticed by people outside of the organization. These criteria constitute an optional, alternative method for demonstrating notability. Organizations are considered notable if they meet one of the following sourcing requirements

these alternate criteria,
the primary criteria for organizations, or
the general notability guideline

and the article complies with the policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, especially with regards to avoiding indiscriminate inclusion of information.

I understand that you are saying that this article does not pass the strict criteria set by WP:NCORP, but the whole point is that for a non-commercial organization such as a club, we are allowed to apply the alternate criteria outlined in WP:CLUB or WP:GNG instead. I also completely disagree with your interpretation of what the three sources say. Cielquiparle (talk) 15:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the Alternate Criteria but it still requires significant coverage that is independent and in reliable sources. Of the first three sources, for me, the last two amount to nothing more than a passing mention. The best source you've linked to is the book but again, for me, the book appears to speak more about the area than the club and is not "significant coverage" as it does not address the topic directly and in detail. I will add though that after today and the amount of researching I've done, there's no longer any doubt for me that the annual regatta during Chester Race Week meets GNG. HighKing⁺⁺ 16:15, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@HighKing: I thought the same, the race is notable the club is not. Bruxton (talk) 02:14, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I could see an argument for having both a club page and a race page. I was actually more worried about the justification for a race page, because the coverage inherently tends to be more promotional and marketing-like in nature. But could also support having both. Cielquiparle (talk) 04:52, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Given the lack of independent sourcing for the club that addresses the topic directly and in detail, I'm not sure there's a good sustainable argument for the club. It appears that the club gets mentioned because the largest boating regatta in Canada takes place in its environs. It is the race week that generates all of the publicity for the area. Sure, there are some promotional sources but the Regatta and Chester Race Week is written about in a lot of sources that meets our criteria. HighKing⁺⁺ 11:55, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See our List of yacht clubs - most are not notable enough to have an article. Bruxton (talk) 15:24, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:ATA, that is equivalent to WP:WHATABOUTX Cielquiparle (talk) 15:41, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - meets WP:GNG with the sourcing currently in the article. - Ahunt (talk) 22:28, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - No vote on notability, but I also noticed that coverage seems split between the club and the race week. If the consensus is to keep this content, readers would be better served with a modified structure. It should be either a club article with a dedicated race week section, or a race week article with a dedicated club section. I also noticed that there's a book listed as further reading, yet it's unused as a source. That could tilt the AfD scales towards a keep for the club article, if anyone can access it and extract useful content. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 00:42, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Sailors and Rattling Teacups: A History of the Chester Yacht Club (2006): Yes, it would be useful for expanding the club article and the race week article with care. But for notability purposes, no one likes it because it is published by "Community Press" and the author's background is unknown. Based on your feedback (thanks for reading), I have broken out a separate section for the modern race week, but kept it minimal. I leave it to the race week fans to create the race week-specific article. I think the club article now demonstrates that while the history of the race week is important to the evolution of the club, the club's own story is much bigger than just the race week. The two articles will look very different. Cielquiparle (talk) 07:40, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The author's background is not unknown, she was/is a member of the club. Claudette Sapp is mentioned as a member on the website here. I know we don't agree on the notability of the club as opposed to the race week but please point me to references that addresses the topic directly and in detail which is a criteria of WP:GNG. HighKing⁺⁺ 10:47, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've made my case; you've made yours. We disagree and have differing interpretations. We both need to stop now and let the process take its course. Cielquiparle (talk) 11:37, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Seems to easily meet WP:GNG. "The club is not notable" does not seem a particularly good argument to delete. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:08, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.