Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of 2012 murders in the United States

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Michig (talk) 21:38, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of 2012 murders in the United States

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An unannotated list that is better served by Category:Murders in the United States by year. It is also an odd one out. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:56, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:DOAL. This is better served by a category. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:36, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - better served as a category. --Nounique names 22:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I attempted to engage the creator of this article in his talk page about the criteria under which he felt this list was eligible for inclusion, but I received no response. As with the other lists he created, clear case of WP:DOAL. Better served by categories. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 00:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Reversing my !vote in light of the changes made to this list. I am still bothered by the title, since it seems to imply that it is a fully inclusive compendium of events when it is just a list of murders that have been deemed to be worthy of inclusion in the encyclopedia under the notability guidelines. I am always happy to see information preserved, and I think my record proves that. My initial rationale for deletion here was made in good faith. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@FreeRangeFrog, I am sorry I cannot find the time to address your concerns personally on my talk page. I am a (very) part-time editor, and find myself torn in too many directions. You seem to spend most of your time in deletion discussions so you may not understand where I am coming from, but my main focus right now is to try and save hundred of contributions to wikipedia that you and others are adamant about deleting for good. Ottawahitech (talk) 14:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:CLN. This list contains notable entries on a notable topic. The list could be expanded into a table giving more details (body count, location, etc). Yes, there is a category, but this is an aid to navigation too. Note that the nominator hasn't cited any policy that this list violates, or indeed explained what "an odd one out" means and how it is relevant. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:07, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think policy can always be used to formulate an AfD argument. As for the "odd one out", that is the WP:OTHERSTUFF argument, but I think it should be applied here. There is no other lists by year of murders in the US. Having the list also creates (in a small way) systemic bias and WP:RECENTISM. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 18:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"I don't think policy can always be used to formulate an AfD argument." Well it must do. Read WP:BEFORE. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 18:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BEFORE is not a policy or a guideline and it only says that they should be read and understood. Anyway, it begs the question: what comes first - the AfD or the policy/guideline formulation? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Room for expansion: adding dates, body count, etc, would be very useful. Everybody crowing WP:DOAL should explain which aspect of this policy applies and how it applies. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Note that I've expaned the article as per my suggestion. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The extra info makes it a far better list but I still stand by my stance of deletion. I also would like to point out that there is no Murder in the United States article (it is a redir to Murder (United States law)). Such an article is a notable topic but here we are with a list of murders for only one particular year. Sigh, that is how WP works unfortunately. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 18:30, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is already a category called Category:2012 murders in the United States. You guys are not actually reading WP:DOAL. You should. Question: What if there's a homicide case? Do we include it there, or does it fit just into a generic crime category? What about a notable case of manslaughter? And massacres? After all, they're also technically murder. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 19:19, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you have no problem with figuring out what goes in the category, why would we have a problem figuring out what goes in the list of the exact same name? And please spell out for everyone why you think WP:DOAL compels deletion here. You haven't demonstrated through explanation of how it applies that you've read it yourself; you've merely pointed to it. postdlf (talk) 20:35, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not going to argue about this endlessly; I believe the guideline is quite clear. I've provided my !vote and rationale. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 20:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense. AFD is not WP:JUSTAVOTE, nor is a WP:VAGUEWAVE a "rationale." Try harder. Explain how that guideline section which describes weaknesses inherent to all lists, applies to this list in such a way that this list should be deleted. postdlf (talk) 21:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, What if there's a homicide case? Do we include it there, or does it fit just into a generic crime category? What about a notable case of manslaughter? And massacres? After all, they're also technically murder. What then, do we also include missing person cases that are suspected of murder? Do we list ongoing crime cases that have not been defined as murder? Do we list people who are merely accused of murder? Or maybe move it instead to 2012 crime events in the United States where one or more people lost their lives? Murder has a very specific legal meaning, but inclusion of articles in this list will likely be subject to vague criteria at best, as will the one that will surely be created for 2013, and 2011 and all the prior and future years. Instead of implying that I am using a guideline (not a policy) as an excuse to delete information from the encyclopedia when I am utilizing it as rationale for my !vote based on my interpretation of it, and implying that I don't understand how AFD works, I'd ask you to define for us what exactly you feel should go into this list, and what shouldn't, rather than just claiming it's useful. Would it had been better if I had quoted WP:LISTCRUFT instead, specifically points 7, 9 and 10? Because I prefer to avoid citing essays at AFDs, but that pretty much covers it for me. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 23:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"If you have no problem with figuring out what goes in the category, why would we have a problem figuring out what goes in the list of the exact same name?" postdlf (talk) 01:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"category" §FreeRangeFrog^croak 01:30, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 20:01, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 20:01, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 20:01, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates. The deletion argument that it is better served as a category is false per that template. The list certainly needs improvement, but that isn't a deletion argument. Ryan Vesey 21:15, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Ryan Vesey, you have voted Delete on another similar list also created by me and also nominated for deletion by user: Alan Liefting. Can you please explain why one list is a Keep while the other is a Delete. Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 22:29, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, satisfies WP:LISTPURP as a navigational list of article topics, as a complement to Category:2012 murders in the United States per WP:CLN. I see no substantive deletion arguments here, and so nothing that would override any of that. postdlf (talk) 23:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:NOTDUP. Northamerica1000^(talk) 14:44, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Mostly per Ryan. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 04:16, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Article needs improvement, but it surely satisfies WP:LISTPURP. — Statυs (talk, contribs) 05:25, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.