Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Race in hip hop (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The rough consensus is that while the topic is notable, the current content is not worth keeping, and this AfD should not prevent any editor from creating a better article on the subject in the future. Der yck C. 21:45, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Race in hip hop

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WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, factual errors. We have sources saying Mr. X was born in city Y, which is a bit misleading, these sources are not about this subject. It should've been deleted at the first nomination. Von Restorff (talk) 19:26, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The story about hiphop spreading all over the world is covered in the global innovations-section of the article hip hop. Von Restorff (talk) 02:02, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For a good example of WP:SYNTH, read the first two sentences of the section called Overview. The 3rd sentence of that section is even worse; it says "some believe this discrepancy is a good thing" but the Kanye West quote is totally unrelated. Von Restorff (talk) 07:34, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of the text in this article has nothing to do with "race in hip hop"; and for example the first sentence of the "Discussion"-section is just plain weird. If the article does not get deleted I will have to delete all the nonsense and there won't be enough left for an article. Von Restorff (talk) 07:43, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2011 December 22. Snotbot t • c » 19:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:39, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

~~Possible~~ Keep Hip hop seems to be saying that only black people are involved in true hip hop, other races do not seem to be mentioned (in my quick scan of the long article). On the other hand I know the question of race in popular culture generally is a notable topic, and certainly deserves an article here. Steve Dufour (talk) 00:56, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If it's true that hip hop is only a black thing then this article is not needed since that information is given in the opening sentence of Hip hop.Steve Dufour (talk) 00:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you misinterpret the word "originated". The opening sentence of that article is "Hip hop is a form of musical expression and artistic subculture that originated solely in African-American communities during the 1970s in New York City, specifically the Bronx". This does not mean that hip hop is only a "black thing", whatever that may be, but the ~~people who started it were African-American~~ communities in which it started were mainly African-American. Von Restorff (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2011 (UTC) I striked through part of my comment and corrected it[reply]

MC Serch is Jewish-American, Edan is categorized as a Jewish rapper and the Beastie Boys are categorized as a Jewish hip hop group. Would you consider them to be "black"? I think you missed the section called Global innovations:

Though created in the United States, hip hop culture and music is now global in scope. Asia, The Middle East, Africa, Australia, and the Caribbean have long-established hip hop followings. According to the U.S. Department of State, hip hop is "now the center of a mega music and fashion industry around the world," that crosses social barriers and cuts across racial lines.[39] National Geographic recognizes hip hop as "the world's favorite youth culture" in which "just about every country on the planet seems to have developed its own local rap scene."[40] Through its international travels, hip hop is now considered a “global musical epidemic,”[41] and has diverged from its ethnic roots by way of globalization and localization.

Although some non-American rappers may still relate with young urban Americans, hip hop now transcends its original culture, and is appealing because it is “custom-made to combat the anomie that preys on adolescents wherever nobody knows their name.”[42] Hip hop is attractive in its ability to give a voice to disenfranchised youth in any country, and as music with a message, it is a form available to all societies worldwide.

From its early spread to Europe to an almost worldwide acceptance through Asia and South American countries such as Brazil, the musical influence has been global. Hip hop sounds and styles differ from region to region, but there is also a lot of crossbreeding.

Von Restorff (talk) 01:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Then Keep. The topic is clearly notable. Steve Dufour (talk) 02:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are very welcome. As you may have noticed I did not say the topic is not notable (and I haven't said it is notable either). In this case starting from scratch would be the best option if the topic is notable since the current article is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH and it contains factual errors, for example look at the part I just deleted. Please note that, on Wikipedia, consensus is determined by discussion, not voting, and it is the quality of the arguments that counts, not the number of people supporting a position. So far the only reason you have given for your keep-vote is that the topic is notable, which is not disputed and not a reason to keep the current article. If it is deleted you can list this topic on Wikipedia:Requested articles/music/Hip hop; maybe someone is willing to write a good article based on reliable sources about this topic. Von Restorff (talk) 02:12, 23 December 2011 (UTC) p.s. This is off-topic but I noticed your userpage contains text that is probably copyrighted. Is it copyrighted? Did you get permission to use it and release it under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL?[reply]

I would think a direct quote attributed to the person who said it is fair use. And my understanding is that AfDs are generally about the notability of the topic, not the quality of the article. This is clearly a topic that has received a lot of attention. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Don't let the numerous references fool you: they support certain brief factual statements (like birth places and quotes) but not the conclusions this opinion piece hinges on. Maybe some useful tidbits can be merged to hip hop. -- P 1 9 9 • TALK 18:51, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Bryce (talk | contribs) 07:18, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 17:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 21:28, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tee hee hee. I am used to moderators taking decisions, but not here apparently. Von Restorff (talk) 21:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have moderators. Just a few people who have been given a few extra buttons so they can clean up stuff that needs cleaning up. We certainly don't have any rights make any decisions, that's up to the community. We do have the ability to enact the outcome of the communities choice. In this case, there is no choice to be enacted yet, but there might still be. If no more new opinions will be put forward, this will probably be closed a no consensus. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, not every wiki works like that. Von Restorff (talk) 01:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Someone who noticed the fact this article contains WP:SYNTH too

Egads, this article is a mess - It's horribly written, rambling and unsourced. I'm going to delete most of it, and we'll start from scratch. - The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (using the editsummary: "I am ashamed for this article")

Do we seriously need this article? Call it "list", or something. Or at least merge it into rap... or something similar. - Tinlv7

This article sucks. - Skillz187

I'm putting this up for deletion - I don't really think anything is deserving of an article, and it's pretty much all opinion-based - Viewfromthebridge

What's the point of this article? - B-Machine

Do their opinions count? Von Restorff (talk) 01:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I started removing some BS and OR and SYNTH and offtopic stuff and there is not much left. Von Restorff (talk) 01:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete without prejudice. If there was an article here, it's gone now. Absolutely an encyclopedic topic for a real live sociologist to take on. But it's best to sweep up the rubble and clear the building site at this point. Carrite (talk) 07:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are 100% correct. Unfortunately I am not a sociologist. Von Restorff (talk) 08:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Carrite said it well. All that remains at this point in time is a loosely connected pastiche of quotations and figures - not an article. Kansan (talk) 19:34, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The article itself makes this comment "There are no demographic studies with consistent results to support these claims' there fore, making the article not notable WP:N nor are suitable references apparent to assert any claims. As such the article is point of view WP:NPOV. Appreciably more citation would be needed to lend credibility to the article if it were to be included due to the possible racial divisiveness of the subject matter. The Wiki does not avoid difficult subject matter in its articles but it does state that maintenance of a natural point of view well be consistence applied throughout the Wiki. within its policies--User:Warrior777 (talk) 22:59, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and then merge into Hip Hop, as a section on "Race" or "Race issues". Hip hop is (was?) primarily a black American phenomenon, but it also treats issues like race relations. The specific issue of who buys most of the "rap" or hip hop records needs to be addressed; there are many sources who say white suburban teenagers buy the bulk of it, even if the artists are overwhelmingly black (with Eminem) as the odd man out. --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:20, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete without prejudice to competent recreation. Much of the text has been removed without opposition on January 17, and what remains (a collection of citations) does not make much sense as an article. Sandstein 16:56, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.