Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Skookum

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. WP:SNOW (non-admin closure) Mkdw ^talk 08:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Skookum

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Purely original research not supported by reliable sources. Pfly presented some sources at the talk page, but those are only dictionaries and won't allow us to write more than a dictionary entry - something Wikipedia is not for. Huon (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ - Agree completely with the nom statement, this can't be more than a dictionary at this time. Maybe merge/move some content to Wiktionary, but Wikipedia isn't a dictionary (hence why we have Wiktionary). gwickwire^talk_editing 02:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - This is what I love about AfD. It sometimes ends up with the article being so improved that it is an easy keep vote. It's not there yet, but it's getting there, and I feel with all the sources provided, we can try to make this a better article (let's take out the dictionary parts though). Thanks to the people finding sources for it :) gwickwire^talk_editing 13:12, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete~~ - Agree with nomination and explanation above. As I recall we have Wiktionary for this. --Ozgod (talk) 02:39, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly oppose This article is about a major concept in Pacific NW history/culture and is also more than just a word, or a component of another (skookumchuck, it also refers to the Skookum (monster), the Skookum Doll and the Skookum (cat), and is the origin-word for all those names/things. Since its inception, it seems that various materials and cites have been stripped from the article....to the point where now it is being proposed for deletion; rather than trying to expand or investigate cites and increase their knowledge of this term and the things it means and why it should be an article and needs to be, there is a vendetta against it, and against me, it seems, to the point of picking a fight with me on my own talkpage.....there are other "dictionary" articles around Wikipedia, even though this one's not just about a word but also things named using it........deletion removes that context, and again, rather than go look for the cites that are out there to improve the article, Huon has just done the lazy, uninformed route by wanting it deleted......Skookum1 (talk) 02:47, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In the opening intro of the article it is stated that there are three different uses for this word - for uses #2 and #3 I can understand having Wiki articles for. However, for use #1, a colloquialism, I do not think that Wikipedia is the best location for this use. I would suggest, then, redirecting this article to two separate pages for the two latter alternative uses - one to sasquatch and another one to primarily discuss the dolls, provided a substantial article can be written with merit. --Ozgod (talk) 02:58, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A skookum monster is like a sasquatch, but not a sasquatch; it would be like directing Dzonokwa to Sasquatch......or redirecting troll to gnome.Skookum1 (talk) 03:06, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So on the dolls article or the cat article, that is the place to explain the word and its cultural context/import? ???? The doils article appears to have been deleted, maybe it's Skookum (doll)? Point is that neither cat nor doll items would have turned up if this page had not existed (look at its early history).Skookum1 (talk) 03:08, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I, for one, would like to see some reliable sources beyond dictionaries for any of the supposed meaning. Not even the cat article cites a source. Regarding other dictionary articles: WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Huon (talk) 03:23, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, should be moved to Wiktionary. GoodDay (talk) 03:32, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Far more than a dictionary definition, this is a term that is an integral part of the culture of the Pacific Northwest, British Columbia and southeastern Alaska. How can we call the article "original research" when a book published exactly 100 years ago, The Chinook Book: A Descriptive Analysis of the Chinook Jargon in Plain Words, Giving Instructions for Pronunciation, Construction, Expression and Proper Speaking of Chinook with All the Various Shaded Meanings of the Words discusses the term at length, and mentions it no less than 15 times within that book? Also of significance is that no less than seven books on a wide variety of Pacific Northwest topics include the word "skookum" in their titles. It is a term associated with bowmaking, as discussed in Traditional Bowyers Encyclopedia: The Bowhunting and Bowmaking World of the Nation's Top Crafters of Longbows and Recurves. It is part of the legends of the Pacific Northwest, as discussed in Weird Washington: Your Travel Guide to Washington's Local Legends and Best Kept Secrets. It is a common Native American placename, occurring in Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Alaska, and even as far away as Michigan, according to Native American Placenames of the United States. The place name extends as far south as Death Valley according to The Explorer's Guide to Death Valley National Park, which mentions it at least six times. Back in 1916, a trade publication called Fourth Estate: A Weekly Newspaper for Publishers, Advertisers, Advertising Agents and Allied Interests discussed the term in great detail in connection with the marketing of apples from the region.. Three years later in 1919, Printer's Ink also discussed the term in the context of the marketing of apples. Jack London used the term in arguably his most famous work The Call of the Wild: And, White Fang. The term is discussed in depth in How We Talk: American Regional English Today. This term is notable, and the reliable sources I've identified can be used to expand and reference the article. That is a much better solution than deletion.Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:36, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Thanks Cullen, finally someone comes along who understands the importance of this word/concept and its role in the region where it's used........BTW this cite is the one that Huon removed just before launching this AfD and is the subject of the personal attacks against me that qwickwire has made a parallel ANI claiming I was abusing him when the opposite was the case...... at the very least, if anything is done here, it should be a dab page with the explanation of the term as the lede. The Skookum Club in Seattle is the old name for the Democratic Club of Seattle, and there's now many companies and organizations using this word as part of their name.... Skookum Digital Works, Skookum Brewery....even a company in New Zealand and another in the UK using the word in their names, also skookum.org which is an association for the disabled. This AfD was spurious and launched by someone more interested in deletion than in research/expansion.Skookum1 (talk) 03:44, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment about the placenames, it was partly because of this word's pervasiveness that I started List_of_Chinook_Jargon_placenames quite a long time ago; look under "S" and also note that there are variants e.g. Skukum Group that are not on there yet (I just added it; the Mount Skukum article has not yet been written. If this article is deleted the many "See Skookum" entries on that page will need to be edited.Skookum1 (talk) 03:50, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment re the wantonly deleted Skookum Tools FAQ page/info, it's reliable and verifiable enough that one of the main authors today has repeated its contents in his publications see here. So it's not just my say-so, Jim Holton is another chinookologist and he has validated it by repeating it, as have other sites out there; his book is a major opus and was academically vetted.......... and archive.org has a citable article too.....instead of research and expand, the proponents of this AfD only want to delete it......instead of investigate it and find the sources they say don't exist, as if this were original research, when it's not.Skookum1 (talk) 04:31, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the comments by Cullen328. GoodDay (talk) 03:45, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Cullen328. Pfly (talk) 06:01, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Cullen328. This is one skookum article, though I'm getting rid of some of the other uses section, part of which will be relocated to the dab page. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:09, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. And use some reliable sources to improve/rewrite this page, like this and this. 5.12.84.31 (talk) 12:00, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Skookum dolls seems notable by itself given the coverage in multiple books indexed in Google Books. Those paragraphs, which seem quite factual, should probably be move to their own page. 5.12.84.31 (talk) 14:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As suggested by the IP editor, I've written a new article Skookum doll. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:13, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:13, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:13, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

- Comment I have added four solid references to the article. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:53, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the sources provided by Cullen328 are certainly strong enough to justify keeping the article. CaSJer (talk) 23:29, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment perusing a google search more, and other than the companies and orgs using this name which may prove notable (e.g. Skookum Robotics) it also seems that Skookum (oyster) is yet another usage; the name derives from Little Skookum Inlet near Olympia and originally I thought it was just one oyster farm but turns out there's a few, and the type of oyster grown there is marketed in restaurants as the "Skookum oyster" or "Little Skookum oyster" (the latter name seems to have to do with a particular business, not quite sure about that, the terms are used interchangeably). There's also Skookum Creek Tobacco, a native-owned firm in the same region. Other things like the Skookum tackle turn up to, and that's a generic term for a size of tackle, not a brand. Also the organizers of the oyster fest in Mason County WA (where Little Skookum Inlet is) call themselves the Shelton Skookum Rotary Club, echoing the long-standing use of this word in the region by organizations ranging from the Boy Scouts to large corporations.Skookum1 (talk) 03:35, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.