Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stacked Like Pancakes

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. RisingDown360 I'm happy to restore the article into your userspace as draft; the band may someday be notable enough for inclusion. I'd suggest making other edits to other articles for a while, though. A Train^talk 09:48, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Stacked Like Pancakes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Article by a WP:SPA about a band who fail WP:GNG and WP:NBAND. Lots of references to social media, independent blogs, even Kickstarter and Reddit, but the only real RS is this interview in the Baltimore Sun [1], and even then, that could be considered local news, as the band is from the Baltimore suburb of Towson. Richard3120 (talk) 16:57, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related page for the band's leader, as he has even less notability than the band:

Kellen McKay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Maryland-related deletion discussions. Izno (talk) 16:11, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. — JJMC89 (T·C) 17:00, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Looking past the obvious non-qualifying social media and user downloaded references, the subject has gotten some press, but it's all small time and generally interviews of members of the band talking about themselves rather than objective, third party reportage. Other references and google search results reveal trivial or promotional mentions. Simply not enough to merit wikipedia notability. Also, it seems to be written in close-to-the-source style by an SPA account, it's purpose seemingly being simply for the subject to promote their own notability. Same goes with the forked page for Kellen McKay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ShelbyMarion (talk) 14:20, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Incubate As the creator of the page, I agree that the content is exuberant for the level of the artist and the voice is slightly biased. There are several notable sources however, including a feature in an article on Thrillist showing national credibility, as well as the articles mentioned in the Baltimore Sun, Reddit, etc. The page shows growth in the quantity and quality of the sources. Notion to incubate article to allow other editors to consolidate, contribute, and pursue fixing the voice to feature an un-objective and factual viewpoint of a credible artist. RisingDown360 (talk) 04:52, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Thrillist article may not be a reliable source, as the author is described as a "contributor" rather than a staff writer, but even if it was acceptable, the article is quite WP:PRIMARY and doesn't tell you very much about the band itself – mostly that McKay doesn't care what the current punk scene is called, that the fans tell him his band is a breath of fresh air (subjective), and that he invented the term "brass rock" (unproven). Reddit is never going to be used as a reliable source in any Wikipedia article. Richard3120 (talk) 08:27, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

PS RisingDown, the fact that the photo you added of the band was taken from backstage while they were performing suggests that you are close to them, yes? Richard3120 (talk) 18:24, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is true. And coming into Wikipedia new, I had no false expectations that I was going to get the article perfect and meet every standard. I understand that some bias would be inevitable. My hope was that others would contribute and edit appropriately as is the nature of Wikipedia. I know it's only one specific source, but I don't understand your point to say the Thrillist article "may not be a reliable source." Is it reliable or not? Albeit an article written by a contributor, it will still be approved by editors and I don't think it would be fair to deem it unreliable if you were talking about any other artist mentioned in the article. To do so would be to undervalue Thrillist. And while the artist is indeed not the focal point of the article, it still serves to validate the subject. RisingDown360 (talk) 00:21, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Delete Most of the sources used in this article are published by vanity presses and non-notable media outlets, such as CD Baby. Other websites given as references, such as iTunes can be added to by any musical group, not just notable ones. The only reliable source I see in this article is by The Baltimore Sun [2] but this amounts to one reference. Editors touching the article are also mostly single-purpose accounts. The article Stacked Like Pancakes therefore does not meet WP:GNG and should be deleted. Bmbaker88 (talk) 18:55, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Non-notable local band. No song or album appeared on national ratings charts, no huge numbers of sales, etc. Fails WP:BAND. Shearonink (talk)
• Keep. Does not fail WP:NBAND. I have carefully read the terms. The article states the artist "may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria." Pertaining to your comment Shearonink, a band is not local when they have done several notable and citable national tours in the last two years, including with international artist Reel Big Fish and the Vans Warped Tour, and are actively touring currently. The subject is thus a national artist. I want to stress that I agree with many of the points that have been made towards the voice and quality of the references in the article. Perhaps the page needs to be heavily condensed and simplified, but not deleted. I would encourage all those who have contributed to this discussion to also contribute to editing the article. RisingDown360 (talk) 16:50, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"may be notable if they meet at least one of the following"... that means that inclusion in Wikipedia (or not) is up to editorial consensus.

The 2014 Vans Warped Tour was a single appearance on the Ernie Ball stage (here) - yes it's a wiki but finding information about if they headlined or what their appearances were has been somewhat difficult). In 2015, they again appeared on the Ernie Ball stage 07/01-04 & 07/06-10. In 2016, the information is somewhat difficult to find. In 2017, they did have more appearances (per here, one date on the Hard Rock Stage & then several weeks on the Skullcandy Stage). In my opinion they still do not qualify as a notable band: *None of their songs have charted on a national music chart *they have not released an album on any major record labels *None of their albums or their songs have achieved Gold status *they have not been nominated or won a major award, such as The Grammys. Etc. Others opinions may differ - that is why we are discussing the issue here, attempting to come to an editorial consensus. Shearonink (talk) 20:03, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

*Incubate and tone down the promotional wording in the article There are notable sources - including a feature in an article on Thrillist which does show national credibility. The band had been mentioned in the Baltimore Sun as well. The page is growth in length and in the quality of its sources. Notion to incubate article to allow other editors to contribute additional content and make appropriate changes in the article to make it less biased and more objective. Presently, the article does not fail WP:NBAND as per the artist "may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria." The band is not merely local because they have done several citable national tours in the last two years mentioned by reliable sources, including one with the prominent international artist Reel Big Fish and the Vans Warped Tour. The band is also actively touring and will generate further press in reliable news outlets. The subject of this article is therefore a national artist/band. Granted the quality of the article could be improved via a more neutral tone and and effort to improve the articles references. Alternatively, article could be condensed to the parts of the article which are supported by the higher quality references, but not deleted. There is no sense in throwing out the baby with the bathwater in this instance. Trimming the article would be an excellent compromise position. User: Shearonink wrote: ""may be notable if they meet at least one of the following"... that means that inclusion in Wikipedia (or not) is up to editorial consensus." There does not appear to be a consensus to delete. User: Sheronink also said and I will bold and enlarge for emphasis: "The 2014 Vans Warped Tour was a single appearance on the Ernie Ball stage (here) - yes it's a wiki but finding information about if they headlined or what their appearances were has been somewhat difficult). In 2015, they again appeared on the Ernie Ball stage 07/01-04 & 07/06-10. In 2016, the information is somewhat difficult to find. In 2017, they did have more appearances (per here, one date on the Hard Rock Stage & then several weeks on the Skullcandy Stage). In my opinion they still do not qualify as a notable band: *None of their songs have charted on a national music chart *they have not released an album on any major record labels *None of their albums or their songs have achieved Gold status *they have not been nominated or won a major award, such as The Grammys. Etc. Others opinions may differ - that is why we are discussing the issue here, attempting to come to an editorial consensus." So what we have here is a subjective opinion. Since we have non consensus and we appear to be in a grey/opinion area, the compromise of incubate and later delete if necessary is a good option at this point.Knox490 (talk) 05:18, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as non-notable. The only inarguably reliable independent source cited is the Baltimore Sun, and it's mainly a Q&A; there's very little editorial. If they were booked to play multiple dates on a Warped tour main stage, I'd consider them notable, but Stacked Like Pancakes played a secondary stage, and it was because they won a competition. JSFarman (talk) 03:35, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They won the Ernie Ball Battle of the Bands competition in 2014. They were an official artist on the tour in 2015 and 2017. RisingDown360 (talk) 20:28, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RisingDown360, Knox490: even if the Thrillist article is accepted as a reliable source, I must say again that it's really only good for one sentence in a Wikipedia article about Stacked Like Pancakes... that Kellen McKay calls his band's sound "brass rock". The article is about the LA punk rock scene rather than about the band itself, and all it says specifically regarding the band is "the fans love us" and "we don't have a name for the scene we're lumped in with", which has nothing to do with the band anyway. I wouldn't be against draftifying the article, but please note that articles can only be in draft space for six months before being deleted, so you'd have to be fairly confident of coming up with some more good sources by then. Richard3120 (talk) 22:43, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am confident that at the very least, more great sources will come to fruition over the course of the next six months. I also want to reiterate my invitation for others who have contributed to this discussion to also contribute to editing the article so that I am not one of only a few editors. RisingDown360 (talk) 18:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We are at least all in agreement that the article for Kellen McKay should go, yes? Richard3120 (talk) 07:33, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree that the Kellen McKay article should probably be deleted but the AFD template presently at Kellen McKay is in error - in my opinion it should not link to this discussion but should instead link to its own separate nomination. Editors have been mainly referring to the Stacked Like Pancakes article, I'll confess I did not realize these two discussions were taking place on the same page. Shearonink (talk) 17:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake - closely-related discussions can be linked. Shearonink (talk) 17:54, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Kellen McKay. Fails WP:BIO, fails WP:ENT, fails WP:MUSICBIO. Shearonink (talk) 17:54, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.