Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tommy Joe Ratliff

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There were a number of arguments on both sides of the debate, but those arguing to keep the article have failed to show significant coverage of Ratliff himself in reliable sources to establish notability. -- Atama頭 01:45, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tommy Joe Ratliff

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Non-notable musician, failing NMUSIC. Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 00:03, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I want to protest the action of deleting Tommy Joe Ratliff. It was proposed by one of the many "haters" who roam the internet at all times. Tommy is a celebrity in his own right. He has approx 29,000 followers on Twitter, and has fans all over the globe since he toured as Adam Lamberts bassist. He has the #1 selling picture for the NOH8 campaign, and is an open minded and caring individual.Adams kitty (talk) 02:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

— Adams kitty (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

And none of those are valid claims to prevent the article from being deleted. Please see WP:NMUSIC for the criteria that he must meet in order to be notable under the policy governing the notability of musicians. Oh, and by the way, please do not refer to me as a "hater". I don't appreciate that, nor does it fall under "Asssume Good Faith", which is one of the pillars of Wikipedia. Thanks. Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 07:22, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Even if not notable for his music alone, Tommy Joe Ratliff is a person of interest in the controversy surrounding the American Music Awards kiss he and Lambert shared on national television, and by extension, the ongoing social concerns surrounding the double standards in our society in regards to gay rights. He has become notable as a strong, calm supporter of both gay rights and gender defiance, using his influence as a musician on a small scale to lend his support to worthy charities and causes. People want to know about him, who he is and what he does, the projects he's involved in, his music, his influence on society, all things Wikipedia covers. He fulfils requirement 4 of the criteria for notable musicians. Rightsareright (talk) 18:41, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

— Rightsareright (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Re: "He fulfils requirement 4 of the criteria for notable musicians." - Can you cite reliable sources for that? The article does not prove that claim. As to the rest of your comment, the "controversy surrounding the American Music Awards kiss" and the rest of that sentence is not a valid claim to notability, as the article currently stands. Your statement is original research, not a verifiable fact. The "People want to know about him.." statement is also OR. Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 19:26, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I'm also here to protest the deletion of Tommy Joe Ratliff's page. He is a known celebrity in his own right and there's no reason to remove his page. As stated above, he is a known globally and has thousands of fans that benefit from having a central location to find his information. I looked through the Wikipedia:Notability (music) page that was linked above and he fits several of the requirements.

1. Performance liner note credits: Adam Lambert's "Glam Nation Live" dvd and cd; Adam Lambert's "Acoustic Live!" EP

2. He plays bass for Adam Lambert's and Monte Pittman's bands, both of whom are notable musicians; and guitar for Ravi Dhar and the Heartless.

2.1 He "Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country." with Adam Lambert's Glam Nation Tour.

3. He has been in the following music videos:

- Adam Lambert: For Your Entertainment, Whataya Want From Me, If I Had You

- Steve Cooke (musician): Radio (article listed below)

- Sutan Amrull/Raja: Diamond Crowned Queen (article listed below)

4. Tommy has been the subject of public works all over the world:

-http://www.rockstarweekly.com/adam-lambert-bassist-tommy-joe-ratliff-loses-father.html

-http://www.rockstarweekly.com/adam-lamberts-orchestra-of-glitz-welcomes-2010.html

-http://www.rockstarweekly.com/adam-lambert-the-complete-vancouver-concert-rundown.html

-http://ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=7648&MediaType=1&Category=22

-http://axestaticprocess.com/2011/04/14/monte-pittman-tommy-joe-ratliff-on-steve-cookes-radio-video/

-http://www.unrealitytv.co.uk/american-idol/adam-lambert-kisses-bass-player-tommy-joe-ratliff-on-stage-video/

-http://www.thedragqueenposse.com/2011/06/19/raja-diamond-crowned-queen-official-music-video-by-austin-young-forever/

4.1 Japanese magazine InRock interviewed Tommy alone on September 18, 2010. (English Translation)

5. "Has been the subject of a half-hour or longer broadcast across a national radio or TV network." Quote from Wikipedia:Notability (music)

-After the American Music Awards on November 22, 2009 Tommy's name was forever linked with Adam Lambert's in a controversial debate about gay rights and censorship on national television. Immediately after the performance they appeared as a band on Late Night with David Letterman (Taped 11/23/2009, aired 11/25/2009), The Ellen Show (Taped 11/30/2009, aired 12/1/2009), The Early Show (11/25/2009), The Jay Leno Show (12/21/2009), The View (Taped 12/8/2009, aired 12/10/2009). The band performed and the controversy was discussed in Adam's interviews. There were also countless print articles about the debate. Tommy and the debate subject was also parodied by Jay Leno on December 1, 2009.

6. It could also be argued that Tommy's page should be kept based on section 2.7 of Wikipedia:Notability (people).

- Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following: 28,000+ twitter followers

- Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment: When asked, Adam Bouska, the co-founder of the world renowned NOH8 Campaign stated that Tommy's NOH8 photo is the most requested. Bryce Ferguson, the NOH8 Campaign merchandising manager confirmed the claim. http://www.noh8campaign.com/article/tommyjoe Rae 1985 (talk) 20:08, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

— Rae 1985 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

So, basically what you're saying in 4., above, is that he is "notable" for a single act. Generally, that's not enough to pass under GNG. Your commentary under 5. above is marginal, at best, as his appearances were - by your own words - "as a band", not as an individual, which is a requirement under NMUSIC ("independent coverage"). Your statements under 6. above are referenced to Twitter accounts, which are generally not accepted under RS. The comments under 1., 2., and 3. are generally true about just about any member of any backing band or support to any notable group or artist, so they, too, are marginal, at best. Sorry, but although you make a solid argument and are the first person to have actually presented examples, I still don't feel that you've proven independent notability for this individual. Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 20:16, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what I'm saying at all. You can see that the November 22, 2009 American Music Awards and the subsequent controversy gave Tommy a name in the media. He was specifically mentioned by name in many of the interviews and articles from both sides of that debate. Following that the musical credits, world tour, other band credits, NOH8 involvement, and large interested fan base made him a person of interest. I added another reference to how he meets NMUSIC in 2.1 and an article in 4.1 above.

According to those notability rules Tommy as "a musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria." He meets the following criteria:

1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself.

- NOH8/InRock article/NAMM musician

- Tommy is listed as an artist joining Orange Amps for NAMM 2011.

4. He may not have been the headliner, but his was a name of interest in press related to the tour. Articles linked above, but more can be provided.

6. He is or was part of a band with 2 or more notable musicians:

- Adam Lambert is a well known singer.

- Monte Pittman has released albums of his own and played for Madonna for years.

- Longineu W. Parsons III is their former drummer and is a member of the band Yellowcard.

- Camila Grey is their current keyboardist and a member of Uh Huh Her.

- Isaac Carpenter is their current drummer and a member of Loaded (band), Loudermilk, and others.

- Lisa Harriton is their former keyboardist and a member of the Smashing Pumpkins.

- Zac Baird is their former keyboardist and a member of Korn.

- Also note, these musicians all have Wikipedia pages of their own.

As for Wikipedia:Notability (people) Entertainers:

2. Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.

- 28,000+ twitter followers

- Two merchandise stores: TJRMerch and Angel Batz

- TJRPics is a team that documents all photos

3. Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.

- The AMA's controversy (linked below on the actual American Music Awards 2009 wikipedia page) is part of the larger ongoing gay rights, equality and censorship debate. Tommy was one of two people that started the debate. This event could be argued as being as significant as the 2003 MTV Video Music Awards Madonna and Britney kiss.

- His is the top requested NOH8 photo. I realize that twitter is a shaky reference, but Adam Bouska is the co-founder and Bryce Ferguson is the NOH8 Campaign merchandising manager.Rae 1985 (talk) 21:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It does not matter who the individual is; Twitter does not meet RS. If the information that was given in the tweets in question is factual, then it exists somewhere else in a form that does meet RS. Find it, put it in the article, and you're in much better shape. That is true for everything else that you've presented, as well... improve the article with that information, properly referenced, and the article will be in better shape to avoid deletion. Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 01:17, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My argument above

Question - The AMA controversy is significant enough that it is specifically mentioned on both the American_Music_Awards_of_2009 article and the Adam Lambert article. If it is worth mentioning there, isn't it logical to include the one other person directly involved in the controversy? Cassieloon —Preceding undated comment added 20:22, 11 July 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Under GNG (under "Presumed") , no. Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 20:24, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Under GNG (under "Significant coverage") , yes. Rightsareright (talk) 20:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But, not if said "Significant coverage" is as a result of SENSATION. Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 20:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But the argument against sensationalism states "Tabloid or yellow journalism is usually considered a poor basis for an encyclopedia article, due to the lack of fact checking inherent in sensationalist and scandal mongering news reporting." In this case the facts are both on camera and registered in the courts. Adam Lambert did kiss Tommy Joe on national television, that is not in question. An official complaint was lodged by the Liberty Council with the FCC . There is no sensationalism in the facts of what happened. Cassieloon —Preceding undated comment added 23:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC).[reply]

You're interpreting the statement incorrectly. The sensationalism of the event is merely that, "Oh my God, a man kissed another man on live television! The horror!" I've read the complaint and that is the gist of the argument that it makes. That single, sensationalist, event does not make Tommy Joe Ratliff notable for inclusion on Wikipedia. Some of the other arguments that have been presented since I opened this discussion - at the request of another editor in another AfD discussion[1] - might be enough, but I'm not convinced and will leave that decision to the closing administrator. Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 01:15, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 11:58, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, you should delete his page. he's a nice guy, but this is just the attempt of some obsessed fans who can't get close enough to adam lambert to make a hired musician/friend seem more important than he really is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.13.237.169 (talk) 03:55, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
lol his only claim to fame is that adam lambert kissed him on national tv. desperate tommyberts may try to make him a celebrity, but he's not. He seems like a good guy, but that's not enough to warrant a wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.13.237.169 (talk) 03:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 16:24, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, notability isn't inherited from Adam Lambert to his bass player. The sources are basically about Adam Lambert, not about Tommy Joe Ratliff. But, the fact that he isn't notable doesn't mean Tommy Joe Ratliff has to be a redlink. The best outcome here would be a WP:SMERGE of a short paragraph to Adam Lambert, and turn Tommy Joe Ratliff into a redirect.—S Marshall T/C 23:21, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Are you going to write-up bio paragraphs for all his band members, dancers, and tech people? Several of his other band members are of note and his previous dancers have posed for the NOH8 campaign. I don't see the point of singling out his bassist. Ratliff is not notable outside of the context of Adam Lambert and even then, including a paragraph about the early life and "philanthropy" of the backing band's bassist on a solo artist's page doesn't make sense to me. - 75.129.228.122 (talk) 16:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, but other people might want to. As and when there's sufficient information for a separate article on Adam Lambert band, then it can be fissioned off.—S Marshall T/C 11:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Either delete the Tommy Joe Ratliff entry or let it stay, but I respectfully request that Adam Lambert's entry not be cluttered with extraneous hired musicians, dancers, and other craftspeople. Each of them is important in their own way, Tommy Joe Ratliff included, but none of them belong as an addendum to Adam Lambert's page in my opinion. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.94.110.197 (talk) 21:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

— 75.94.110.197 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Keep - Tommy Joe Ratliff is a talented musician and artist. He has an interesting connection to Adam Lambert and it would be such a shame to loose his Wiki page. The work he does for the NOH8 campaign has brought him even more fans. Please keep Tommy Joe Ratliff's page. --Eastlea (talk) 23:46, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

— Eastlea (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

KEEP! I am here to try to prevent the deletion of Tommy Joe Ratliff's Wikipedia page. I am a fan of his as are hundreds of thousands. He has earned respect as an amazing musician and I see no reason to delete his page. People should be able to read about all his accomplishments and all that he will continue to do in the future. Tommy is very active in the NOH8 campaign and has the most requested/purchased celebrity photo on said campaign, donating all profits to NOH8. He's an amazing person and we should all know who he is! Please don't delete his page! - 99.53.224.202

— 99.53.224.202 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Redirect to Adam Lambert, lacks independent notability. The above claims of notability are a major misinterpritation of the guideline and at best support a redirect. (note, if this is somehow kept a history merge with TommyJoe Ratliff is needed as this article was created with a cut paste move). duffbeerforme (talk) 02:24, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I find it very telling that, after ten days of attention and criticism, this article still can not substantially prove the notability of the subject in his own right. Nearly every reference provided in the article - at the present time - is a reference that is talking about Adam Lambert, not Tommy Joe Ratliff. Despite the presence of a few "keep" comments above, I still suggest that this debate be closed with a result of - at the very least - redirect, if not delete altogether. Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 11:42, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Despite the string of SPA's that have shown up here to argue for inclusion, the notability is just not there. "I am a fan" "He has followers on Twitter" etc. are not valid arguments; neither is insulting the editors who are trying to apply Wikipedia's criteria to this article. Although the article has 22 "references", most are not to Reliable Sources, most are about Adam Lambert rather than Tommy Joe Ratliff, and some do not even mention Ratliff. BTW I don't know how they did it, but somebody managed to remove this subject as a title/subhead on the July 14 AfD page, so that it's hard to tell where the Jack Hoban nomination leaves off and the Tommy Joe Ratliff nomination begins. --MelanieN (talk) 00:06, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Barely notable for one event. Not notable as part-time model. Philanthropy doesn't establish notability. Not notable as sideman. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 21:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete no significant coverage of the article subject aside from WP:ONEVENT, no criterion of WP:MUSICBIO is met. Hekerui (talk) 12:15, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Anyone know why this debate is still active, almost a month after it was opened? LOL Strikerforce^{Talk Review me!} 17:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Significant coverage for the subject is limited to being kissed by Adam Lambert during the 2009 AMAs WP:N As the Ratliff entry itself states, since then the subject has been a member of an ever changing backing band. He has no history with notable bands. He has no music of his own. He has not been noted for his skills as a bassist or a musician. Lesrhea (talk) 16:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC) — Lesrhea (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.