Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ulisses Soares

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:56, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ulisses Soares

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No independent sources to establish notability, all sources are related to the Mormon Church. Deleted on the Portuguese wiki. Saturnalia0 (talk) 13:13, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. WeAreAllHere _talk 13:24, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Brazil -related deletion discussions. WeAreAllHere _talk 13:24, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - See link. Although comparatively young, in April Elder Soares became the newest, and the lowest ranking, LDS apostle (of which there are 15). The first ever Latin-American to hold this position, statistically speaking (the numbers crunched according actuarially solely according to age), his chances of becoming LDS leader-prophet might be guestimated over 5%.[1][2] Worldwide, there are as many Mormons in world as e.g. Jews, and for both these two religions, half live inside, half live outside, the US. Considering the population of Mormons worldwide, these fifteen individuals of the LDS apostolate certainly in no ways ought be thought "too many" for automatic notability and WP coverage (by analogy with Wikipedia:CLERGY. In fact, each LDS apostle has a blp. See List of members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church)#Current Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.) Many news organizations gave coverage to his appointment, in the U.S.^{e.g. NYT} and internationally.^{El Universo} Bottom line: this blp passes wp:SIGCOV, in that, since becoming an LDS leader, its subject has been the subject of more than one media profile in reliable sources independent of himself.^{(1) Salt Lake Tribune (2) Deseret News}--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 10:41, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

cmt - It is circular reasoning to assert that an individual claimed notable in some field must have received media coverage not pertaining to that field. WP's privileging independent coverage would not discount coverage by the AP, NYT, various weekly US news magazines, such sources as El Universo or Salt Lake Tribune, etc, in the case of Soares. Whereas the Deseret News is owned by the church, note that its national edition--a weekly publication that is only available outside of Utah--has a print circulation of over 100,000 plus a very sizeable digital-only circulation, so in no way should it be considered only a local or even only a "regional" paper. (It's one of the top 25 in the U.S. What's next? Saying, owing to ownership of the news entities in question, NBC News cannot denote notability via its coverage concerning Disney films; Washington Post, via its coverage of Amazon or of Whole Foods Markets? What does Carlos Slim Helu own other than the NYT?) To say something cannot be considered notable on the basis of coverage in the Deseret News does not square with WP's basic wp:RS guidelines, as would be the erroneous belief that coverages in the number-one U.S. Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist publications cannot denote reliable and independent coverage for Wikipedia's purposes. Cf.: e.g. List of Moderators of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA), List of Episcopal bishops of the United States, List of Chief Rabbis of the United Hebrew Congregations, List of Catholic bishops in the United States.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2018 (UTC)--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 01:28, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

* Delete - The article has been deleted three times in the Portuguese wikipedia. It has never been possible to prove its notoriety with external sources of the "A Igreja de Jesus Cristo dos Santos dos Últimos Dias". Guilherme Burn (talk) 19:59, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

cmt - Three times since Soares's April 2018 appointment? The Portuguese Wikipedia is fast. In any case, see wp:OTHERSTUFF.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:06, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - He is not quoted here[3] Is there an official link in Portuguese about the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles?Guilherme Burn (talk) 19:45, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here's one, User:Guilherme Burn: LDS.org church leaders Q12 (Portuguese language).
Also a link to a video hosted on (of course, the Spanish-lang.) Univision: link.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 21:15, 17 April 2018 (UTC)--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 23:27, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I understand that participating in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles already characterizes notoriety. but I believe that the article could be better referenced with independent quotes.Guilherme Burn (talk) 23:40, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, User:Guilherme Burn. Existem vários colaboradores que estão tentando complementar as citações do artigo agora.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 00:38, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:23, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - One of the 12 most important names of a 17-million-member Church. Dantadd (talk) 21:36, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Additional sources should be added, but it should be kept. All previous apostles from this worldwide church are included, and this is the first Asian ever to be in the Quorum. One of the claims is that only Deseret News reported it. This isn't accurate. CBS News reported it. The New York Times reported it. The Associated Press reported it. I would say all three of them are notable organizations.Bigddan11 (talk)

cmt - Latin American, not Asian. :-) Dantadd (talk) 13:43, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Soares might not have a remarkable professional career, but he has been somewhat notable for rising in the ranks of the LDS Church (the Mormon Church) over the years. He became especially notable 2.5 weeks ago when he was named as one of the church's 12 apostles, a lifetime position. There is no higher position in the church other than the president himself, who is simply the longest serving apostle. And particularly noteworthy is that he is the first Latin American apostle since the church's founding 188 years ago, despite a significant portion of church membership in Latin America. He and another man were the two first non-white apostles. Since this month there have been plenty of independent, reliable sources: CBS, Chicago Tribune, Salt Lake Tribune, Newsweek, NY Times, NPR, PBS NewsHour. ——Rich jj (talk) 12:33, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note - 18 users were informed of this discussion by Hodgdon's secret garden. Primefac (talk) 14:11, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

cmt - Thank you, User:Primefac.

Everyone please note: The one-and-a-half-dozen wp:CANVASSed were "selected" in an unbiased fasion, their being simply all who have contributed edits to the article nominated for deletion. From the wp:AfD guideline:

"After nominating: Notify interested projects and editors - While it is sufficient to list an article for discussion at AfD (see above), nominators and others sometimes want to attract more attention from and participation by informed editors. All such efforts must comply with Wikipedia's guideline against biased canvassing."

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 18:21, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There has been way more than enough coverage of him in various publications. Wikipedia has articles on every other member of the LDS QUorum of the 12 ever, and for good reason. They will be widely covered in lots of sources. I did find this [4] Bloomberg Business link that is probably about him, but I am not 100% sure. There are lots and lots of substantial mentions in mainstream media publications. I still have not adequately incorporated the substantial article on him and his wife run by the Deseret News after his call into the article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:51, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment On further investigation that link I provided above is to a different Ulisses Soares. That does not negate the fact that As one of the top 15 leaders of a 16 million member Church, with his call to this position covered in lots of major papers throughout the United States and the rest of the world, there is no reasonable criteria to say that Soares is not notable. People can be notable solely for their role in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and this is clearly the case of many other apostles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:06, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Here [5] is a book that quotes from Soares. This does not meet the standards of scholarly work, but it is an indepdent book that takes his statements as worth quoting, and that is a few years before his call as an apostle. For the records, I created the article on Soares several years ago. The fact that this article was not even nominated for deletion until after he became an apostle seems exceptionally odd.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:11, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment While the New York Times and the many articles based on the Associated Press say little about Soares, they do say some. However the Salt Lake Tribune provides substantial coverage of Soares. The Salt Lake Tribune is fully indepdent of the LDS Church in every way, so even the hard to support attempts to discredit all LDS-church related coverage of Soares will fail there. Beyond this, the article not only gives significant background on Soares, but includes quotes about him from two leading academics in the field of Mormon studies. Patrick Q. Mason, the holder of a named chair in the field, is quoted with a statement that covers both Soares and Gong, but says their call is extremely, extremely significant, one of the most significant from the last 40 years. Martins on the other hand speaks to the issue of Soares specifically. I have to admit that I am a bit surprised there has not been more coverage of Saores in the Brazilian press. Although not being fluent in Portuguese I am not sure if there has been or not.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:59, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Johnpacklambert, I cited a Portuguese profile of Soares here: diff.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 22:20, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Here [6] is another published book that quotes Soares.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:01, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep his new position assures notability, coverage supports it.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Here [7] is a Wall Street News Article that my sense is posits Soares and Gong as a sign of the LDS Church finally "going global". I have to admit the analysis in here to me underestimates the importance of the calling of non-American general authorities which has been going on for years, and the various stages in making areas based outside of the US have significant roles in the way to the Church is run. In fact some would argue that the Church first went global no later the 1970s when Neal A. Maxwell and the Church Board of Education decided instead of having Americans run the Church Educational System worldwide, they would proactively recruit people from various countries and as much as possible have the Church Educational System run by locals. This is why Elder uceda, Elder Taylor Godoy, Elder De Hoyos and Elder Dube among LDS general authroties from outside the US all spent their careers running the Church's supplemental weekday religious education programs (seminaries and institutes) in their various countries, or at least as full-time Church employees running it. Elder De Hoyos may have never run it for more than Mexico. Elder Uceda I am not 100% sure on what the area he oversaw was exactly. Elder Godoy was last running the Church Educational System in his native Peru, plus Ecuador, Colombia and Venezuela. Elder Dube ran it in Zimbabwe, Zambia and Malawi. The data on this issue is hard to find, but I have the impression that basically all international areas had locals running the Church Educational System at all levels, at a time when the Presiding Bishopric which oversees properties of the Church and distribution of funds and other physical operational activities was often relying more on Americans sent abroad. Thus the person who recruited Elder Soares into working as a fulltime employee of the LDS Church as Brazil South Area auditor in the 1990s was an American working as the head of temproal affairs in the Brazil Area at a time when the CES had been run by Brazilians for over 20 years. Elder Michael J. Teh, the only current general authority seventy from the Philippines, spent his career working for the Church. He was head of member and statistical records for the Philluipines Area and before that had worked as temple recorder. So less focused on fiancial issues than Soares, but not in a position where he worked directly with the teaching of Church doctrines, as were Dube, De Hoyos, Uceda and Godoy (plus Elder Paul Johnson from the US, not to mention Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the 12, although Holland since he was a religion professor at BYU came up from a slightly more acdemic pathway than some of the others), Elder Tanuiel B. Wakolo the only general authority seventy to date from Fiji, spent his early career as a police officer. However he was head of the Church's Fiji Service Center before becoming a mission president (in Arkansas, but that is another story). I have not yet figured out if this service center was involved in tracking land records, distributing lesson materials, or a place where employment and other services were given, or maybe even both.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:52, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A quote from the WSJ piece John Pack Lambert linked abv: "Ulisses Soares was born in Brazil and worked as an international accountant, holding church positions in South America, Africa, Portugal and Salt Lake City."--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:59, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

- For those who care to learn the answer to the question above, [8] tells us "The Fiji Service Centre is one of eight Service Centres reporting to the Pacific Area Office in Auckland, New Zealand. The Service Centre is the temporal affairs administration office for the Presiding Bishopric in Fiji." This tells me it is over land purchase, upkeep of chapels, especially supervising the type of maintenance on buildings that needs to be done by engineers, probably has some role in membership and financial records, and key to interfacing with the government for official Church purposes. It probably also oversees the distribution of the resources through the Church welfare system. Record keeping in the Suva Fiji Temple would not in general be under its purview, but it probably has some connection to the maintenance of that building. The activities of LDS Humanatarian Services in Fiji might also often be conducted indepdently from it. I suspect it has some role to play in any activities of the Perpetual Education Fund in Fiji, although the implementation of the fund from a practical standpoint is probably more done by the Church Eduational System. I am still not 100% sure. This is partly because in the US basically all the US operations of these types are run from the Presiding Bishoprics office in Salt Lake City. There are local facialities management groups that oversee the maintenance of LDS buildings in an area of maybe 4 stakes, as well as having a role in selling buildings the Church no longer uses, purchasing buildings and the like. The PEF does not operate in the US, and BYU Pathway International in the US is run through local eccesiatical chanels although where Church Educational System buildings exist these are normally utilized. The welfare services in turn are seperate from facilities management, and even there the Employment Resource Center, Bishop Storehouse and LDS Family Services (a counseling agency, that used to also be involved in adoptions, but no longer is directly), even when they all operate out of a single location have different areas that they oversee and lack a unified director. most statistical records are handled centrally by the Presiding Bishopric Office in Salt Lake City, as is the contracting out of some building maitence functions. The Church has also devolved Church History record gathering and some family history record gathering and operational issues outside the US to the area offices. I am not sure if Wakolo would have handled any of these functions such as supervising the gathering of oral histories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:07, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep holds a high position and has rs coverage that passes WP:GNG Atlantic306 (talk) 15:41, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. as one of the 15 members of the highest LDS governing council. I don't see how this could possibly be challenged unless the nature of an LDS Apostle was not recognized. The details of his work in Brazil are interesting but not necessary--it's his position in the overall hierarchy that make him notable. DGG ( talk ) 17:19, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:CLERGY says that bishops are generally notable, and being a member of the Quorum of the Twelve is more notable than that. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.