Talk:Big Ben/Archive 3

Here's a link for the needed citations. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4589527.stm Rsduhamel (talk) 07:53, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I removed some redundant citations from the lede to improve its style. Another editor has reverted on the apparent grounds that these redundant citations are needed to quell editor dissent regarding the name of the article. I oppose this on the grounds that:

1. Repeated citations for the same point are redundant, give the article a tendentious tone which is contrary to NPOV and look ugly.
2. The lede should summarise the rest of the article and so, ideally, shouldn't have any citations at all.
3. Any disputes such as the name of the article should be resolved here on the Talk page. The article should be kept clean of detritus from such disputes since the article is intended primarily for the reader, not for the editor.
4. The dispute regarding the name of the article is a done deal and I see no prospect of it being reversed.

I expect to be editing this article further and will continue to improve its style as indicated. The clock will be getting a lot of attention this year and so our article should be brought up to FA standard soon. Since it doesn't seem to have had a GA review yet, we have our work cut out for us... Colonel Warden (talk) 00:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Some responses to your points:

1. Could you point to this in the MOS? My understanding is that Wikipedia's general stance on reliable third-party references and citations is "more is better" and that reliable third-party sources referenced during disputes on a disussion page should be added to the overall benefit of the article.

2. This contradicts WP:LEAD which explicitly states "The lead ... should be carefully sourced as appropriate ...".

3. Agreed disputes should be resolved here. I can't find the policy or guideline that discusses this point right now, but somewhere the point is made that material from contentious discussions, when well-sourced, rather than being "detritus", can add to the article; the fact is that there is disagreement over the applicability of the nickname Big Ben, not just between Wikipedia editors, but in the wider community. Altering the article to inform readers of this this serves their interest.

4. Agreed.

--Rogerb67 (talk) 10:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• WP:LEADCITE addresses the issue but concludes "The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus" which leaves it to us. I haven't found much about the use of multiple footnotes but this talk discusses the technical issues. Perhaps a sensible compromise would be to retain one citation in the lead but then to cite a different source when the same point recurs in the body. This would give a clean appearance while providing multiple sources to verify the contentious point. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
  • WP:LEADCITE also makes it clear that "Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations", which certainly applies to the nickname Big Ben. I agree that citations should not be multiplied for the sake of it in the lead. Since information from the lead is necessarily repeated in the article body, it is appropriate to repeat references from the lead at the same place; readers should not be expected to check the lead to find references pertinent to an item in the article body. However, the reference name system should be used to avoid unnecessary repetition of detail. I think the COD reference is probably most appropriate in the lead; the others should be moved down to the nickname discussion section, merging as appropriate. I will do that, please feel free to discuss further here and make further changes for discussion if you are not satisfied with this proposal. --Rogerb67 (talk) 12:43, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Given that some editors do not think that the Clock and Tower are also called Big Ben, it is appropriate to include several other tertairy sources that state the name of Big Ben is also used to Clock and Tower, so that readers who hold the same opinion over the nick name can check that it is indeed true that reliable tertairy sources do indeed call the Clock and Tower, as well as the Bell, "Big Ben", and so be informed that this is not a Wikipedia mistake. --PBS (talk) 09:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

We don't need so many citations in the lead though. I prefer Roger's version and so shall revert PBS's edit. Colonel Warden (talk) 10:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Please note none of the citations were lost; two were duplicates (which would have been better included using the <ref name="foo" /> syntax) and I added the third to the section discussing the nickname. One citation per contentious fact or popular POV is sufficient for the lead as reflected in WP:LEAD and particularly WP:LEADCITE. The COD reference adequately supports the statement that Big Ben is used for the tower and clock in addition to the bell. --Rogerb67 (talk) 13:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I note that an edit has been made, partially removing references to things other than the Great Bell as Big Ben. The edit summary refers to previous discussion. I read this summary as implying that the discussion established a consensus that Big Ben was somehow correct only for the Bell. No such consensus was reached, in fact in my opinion, the discussion was remarkable for its lack of consensus and in the most part for its lack of citation of reliable third-party sources.

Since use of the name Big Ben is both potentially ambiguous and contentious, I suggest that its use is avoided except in the introduction and when discussing the nickname itself. Using the terms Great Bell, Clock Tower and Great Clock as appropriate avoids both ambiguity and maintains NPOV as to the applicability of the nickname, which is in dispute amongst editors and as far as I can see varies in usage between various English-speaking communities.

Please note I don't wish to reopen the debate on what the nickname applies to, nor what the article should be called - the volume of posting above demonstrates the extent to which this is in dispute. Rather I want to discuss what the article should contain, in light of this difference of opinion.

--Rogerb67 (talk) 10:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• I beg to differ. The sources we cite for this use the term Big Ben without making it clear whether they are talking about the clock, the tower, the bell or the general assembly. For us to change the terminology introduces an element of OR. For example, the BBC source says, "Big Ben has been named Britain's favourite landmark, in a poll of more than 2,000 adults. The central London attraction beat Wiltshire stone circle Stonehenge into second place.". If reliable sources such as the BBC and The Times are content with this usage, then we should not try to be holier than the Pope. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
  • The problem with this idealised approach is that people will come in and make wholesale changes according to their POV, introducing bias. This is less likely and easier to spot and correct if the nickname is avoided. It is not OR to interpret from context which is being referred to; if this is not possible such as in the example you proffer, quotation marks (i.e. "Big Ben") could be used. This would usefully highlight the ambiguity of the source. I would expect such examples to be in the minority in useful sources. Should I understand from your comments that you are for reverting Retro00064's recent change? --Rogerb67 (talk) 13:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• I suppose that we have many eyes watching the article and so need not fear casual drift. And I maintain the point about OR. For example, consider the Metro source which says "Big Ben has been voted the most iconic London film location. The landmark topped the poll for a scene in the 1978 thriller The Thirty Nine Steps, when English actor Robert Powell's character hangs off the clock face." This is ambiguous as between the tower and the clock. By following the usage of the source, we are faithful to it and I doubt that the reader will be dissatisfied. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:32, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• Regrettably I suspect that most of the "many eyes" will not have the same high regard for the original sources. As far as I can see, your suggestion is effectively a vote for pedantic application of Wikipedia policy. As editors generally act in good faith believing their edits to be in line with policy, this seems to simply be support for the status quo. --Rogerb67 (talk) 14:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• Other editors, please feel free to add your comments to this thread; it's hard to build consensus with two opposed opinions! --Rogerb67 (talk) 14:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Rogerb67, the reason I made the edits is because you previously added a comment (higher up in the talk page) that the name "Big Ben" should be used only in the introduction and when disscusing the nickname itself. I support that view, and so all I did was I saw usage of the name "Big Ben" in that pop-culture section of the article and thought they were referencing the clock tower (not the bell) so that's why I changed it. I do, however, support replacing the usage of the name "Big Ben" where referencing the bell with "The Great Bell". Regards. [|Retro00064 | (talk/contribs) |] 22:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Retro for clarifying your intentions. I had no intention of singling you out or suggesting your edit was made in bad faith; neither of these would be deserved. Rather, I wanted to air a discussion of what the best thing to do was, rather than starting an edit war.

Ah, I see I did suggest using it only for the bell earlier. So much for being self-consistent! My thinking in suggesting we should remove it entirely was that removing it for everything except the bell could be interpreted as supporting the POV that the nickname only applies to the bell. The counter-argument supporting the position I indicated earlier would be that using it for the bell is reasonable where context indicates it is the bell we are talking about, since its use for the bell is undisputed. Since I clearly don't know my own mind on this issue, it's just as well I started a discussion here first!

--Rogerb67 (talk) 09:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The citation I've marked 'dubious' doesn't support the assertion in the second or third sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlieRCD (talk • contribs) 08:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Moved to bottom where it should be. --Rogerb67 (talk) 01:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Could someone please remove the fair use picture from 39 steps. There is no real need to use this fair use image here, as it does not really add anything to the article. Seems quite a stretch. --87.234.44.130 (talk) 15:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Could you please specify where in the article this image is located? [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 05:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It isn't there anymore. It was removed the day the OP mentioned it. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 08:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Alright, one final comment about the move to Big Ben by PBS. Please listen! When you decide the common name, please consider this policy: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Do not overdo it. That policy clearly says that if the common name is misleading then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. Please read that policy, then decide. If the decision is the same as it has been for the past few months, then I give up trying to resolve this issue! I'll just toss the memory of this away, and not even bother with this article or this disscusion anymore. [|Retro00064|☎talk|✍contribs|] 05:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)By big Ben —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.110.126.11 (talk) 08:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

lemons are like chickens and taste good —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.42.55.12 (talk) 14:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a section called "Awards" which cites this brief story about how a construction company's survey of 2,000 people found that the tower was the most popular landmark in the United Kingdom. I dispute that this is an award at all, and that the opinions of 2000 people provides any kind of encyclopedic value beyond mere trivia. I removed the content with an edit summary to this effect, but User:Colonel Warden reverted it without comment. I dispute that revert, and suggest the content remain removed. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 19:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. The section seems valid but the word award could be improved. I have reworked it as Accolades and moved a similar entry into it. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I read this article for the first time today, on Big Ben's 150th anniversary. It was a very good article, howeve the "Malfunctions & Breakdowns" section is out of balance as it has become weighted towards recent events. Also, some entries refer to maintenance, not malfunctions or breakdowns. --Savlonn (talk) 09:01, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The first two entries (New Year's Eve 1962 and 5 August 1976) are fine as they indeed are major malfunctions and breakdowns. --Savlonn (talk) 09:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

• 27 May 2005: Clock stopping (twice). I question whether this relatively minor stoppage should be included as an entry, given the 150 year history of the clock. If so, then historical balance would require listing every similar stoppage in history (perhaps in a table). This entry by itself gives the article an undue weighting to a recent event.

• 29 October, 2005: 33 hour stoppage for "largest maintenance shutdown in 22 years". As per above, this is weighted to recent events as previous events (including the earlier shutdown 22 years previously) are not listed. There have been almost seven 22 year periods in the 150 year history of the clock, so I envisage that there must have been several periods of major maintenance over 150 years. Again I suggest including all major maintenance in history - at least in table form.

• 5 June 2006 & 11 August 2007 (several week's maintenance) As per previous comment, these add additional weighting towards recent events without historical context of similar events.

As a final comment I note that there are more entries in this section about scheduled maintenance than "Malfunctions & Breakdowns" as per section heading. I suggest changing section heading to "Stoppages & Breakdowns" or "Major Events and Breakdowns". As well as better reflecting the content of the section, the removal of 'malfunctions' places emphasis on major events. If consensus exists for any 'malfunction' to deserve any entry, then all malfunctions in the history of the clock should be tabled to provide historical weighting accuracy. --Savlonn (talk) 09:01, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The article says

"Construction was entrusted to clockmaker Edward John Dent, who completed the work in 1854."

However, Dent died in 1853 and the work was completed by his step-son Frederick who put his own name on the frame. This can be clearly seen in the virtual tour of the Clock Tower at http://www.bigben.parliament.uk/. I'd like to edit the article to reflect this fact but it's currently protected. 83.104.249.240 (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Yep - I did a quick search and found another website [/http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/london_big_ben.htm Big Ben London] that states

Edward Dent died in 1853, hence the clock mechanism was completed by his stepson in 1854 who later changed hi name to Frederick Dent. --Savlonn (talk) 17:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

However, we need a reliable source for this information. If you can find a reliable source then I or another registered will be happy to make the change. Alternatively, register and wait three days then feel free to make the change yourself (assuming you find a reliable source) --Savlonn (talk) 17:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The section on visiting Big Ben is wrong. Tours are freely available to UK residents. Although they have to arrange it through their MP or a member of the House of Lords. See http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/principal/interviews/clocktowerguide.cfm. Please could a registered user make the necessary changes. 84.51.159.237 (talk) 20:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

This article has problems with repetition. It also doesn't make it truly clear that it's the bell, not the clock or the tower, that's called Big Ben. Any other use is a colloqualism.The tower is, in fact, St. Stephen's Tower, named after St. Stephen's Chapel, the home of the House of Commons from the Middle Ages until the 19th century fire.I notice British subjects, especially geography and history, are prone to this kind of sloppiness. Is it a problem with Britain's education system that so many Brits can't deal with basic facts about their own country, let alone simple writing tasks like using a semi-colon properly? Spoonkymonkey (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Big Ben is a nickname that is applied to the Great Bell, Clock Tower and Great Clock [1], not an official name for any and thus equally colloquial in all senses -- it did happen to be applied to the bell first however -- and the tower is emphatically not St. Stephen's Tower [2]. These facts appear to be adequately described and cited in the article. --MegaSloth (talk) 23:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted that Big Ben, or the clock tower, is in the City of Westminster and not the City of London. It is however in the Greater London area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.111.95.57 (talk) 06:25, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Big Ben Article Corrections

FireThe date of the Fire was 16th October 1834 not 22nd as stated..Ref. The Times 17 Oct 1834.

TerminologyClocks do not have faces they have dials.

Started DateThe clock was started on 30th May 1859 not 31st as stated.Ref: Horological Journal July 1859

ComplettionThe clock was completed in 1854 by Frederick Dent, Edward John Dent died in 1853.

RegulationAdding a coin speeds the pendulum up not down.

WeightsThe weights on the quarter and striking trains are only 1 ton each not 4 tons.

RestartedThe clock was restarted on 4th May 1977 not 9th MayRef: Triumphs of Big Ben by J Darwin.

Bell repairThe square piece was chipped out of the bell to investigate the crack not as part of a repair.Ref: Report by John Percy March 1860 & subsequent letters between Mears, Percy and First Commissioner.

Warner’s Quarter Bells.The largest quarter bell was probably cast at Norton not London.

For wrench hammer read clock bell hammers

NicknameThe first bell was officially named Big Ben after Sir Benjamin Hall First Commissioner of Works.Ref The Times 22nd Oct 1856.

I have not found any evidence that the bell was named after Benjamin Caunt

Note for moderator.I have prepared a comprehensive book on Big Ben that should be out in about 4 months time.

Cgmckay (talk) 16:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• Fix for the penny on the bob, with acknowledgement. Some points may still need fixing, others are OK but perhaps need a ref.

--Old Moonraker (talk) 08:08, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• Further ref added for "31 May 1859".
• Many references in Parliament's own web pages and printed material use "clock faces": not changed.
• Fix for Benjamin Hall, using source provided by User:Cgmckay.
• Ref for Benjamin Caunt.

--Old Moonraker (talk) 08:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• Death of Edward John Dent added.

--Old Moonraker (talk) 15:46, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• Date of fire changed. Still slowly working my way through the list.

--Old Moonraker (talk) 12:45, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I realise the Big Ben v Clock Tower debate has been repeated ad nauseum but... on reading the article it struck me that at no point in the body of the article is it explained that Clock Tower is the (or even a) name of the tower. The phrase 'clock tower' is used in the general sense early on in the article and then later as the proper noun - 'Clock Tower'. At present, the explanation is left to a small caption under the photograph to the right - this cannot be ideal. --81.23.54.142 (talk) 06:46, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

What is the relevant of the (yet) unfinished Abraj Al Bait Towers to this article? Could this be a promotion attempt? --Futurix (talk) 01:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Apologies for sounding rude but the bit about Big Ben not being open to the general public is absolute nonsense. Any UK resident can book a tour of Big Ben through their MP and then the person in question can be joined by any relatives or friends who may wish to join them. There is a special security clearance which means tours must be booked a minimum of two weeks in advance. http://www.parliament.uk/visiting/visitingandtours/bigben.cfm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.126.183 (talk) 23:02, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Done Ghughesarch (talk) 23:30, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Never heard of this before it was mentioned here: http://www.bigben.parliament.uk/ixbin/indexplus?record=ART142Can't find mention of it on Wikipedia either. Anyone care to research it to add to the article? Beeurd (talk) 13:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The light was named after Acton Smee Ayrton who was the First Commissioner of Works. The light is lit at night time when Parliament is sitting. Originally there was one light that faced towards Buckingham Palace so Queen Victoria would know that her Parliament was at work.

The Ayrton light was first introduced in 1871 as an experiment, but it was not until 1874 that the Commons agreed to cary on with the light. Initially gas light was used but today it uses a couple of high-efficiency light bulbs and the light is omnidirectional.

Chris McKay —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgmckay (talk • contribs) 21:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I have tracked down what I believe is the source of the myth that the Great Bell might have been named after the prize boxer Benjamin Caunt.

The satirical magazine Punch carried an article for 29 Nov 1856. This takes the form of a letter from Brown, Jones and Robinson who each give their views on who they thought the bell had been named after.... Benjamin Hall, Benjamin Disraeli, Benjamin Caunt

The letter was dated July 5 1999.

Getting inside the humour / satire of 150 year old Punch's is not easy since it is essential to know the social and political situation of that day. However, it looks very much like the article was a tilt at the establishment for naming the bell after Sir Benjamin Hall without any public consultation.

Interesting to observe that the Caunt name lives on, but Disraeli was forgotten.

Chris MckayCgmckay (talk) 21:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The opening line of the article says, "Big Ben is the nickname for the great bell of the clock at the north end of the Palace of Westminster in London".This is wrong.The Palace of Westminster is not in London, it's in Westminster, a different city in it's own right and a separate borough.

To be worded correctly it should say, "Big Ben is the nickname for the great bell of the clock at the north end of the Palace of Westminster in the 'Metropolitan County of Greater London'"

92.239.71.235 (talk) 18:52, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget WP:BETTER: "the first paragraph should be short and to the point." Any suggestion that the Palace of Westminster is anywhere else than London would confound this.--Old Moonraker (talk) 06:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The metropolitan area is known simply as "London", so I think it is perfectly reasonable to say so; in an international context, it is the City of London that is more likely to cause confusion. That said, a mention of the City of Westminster would not necessarily be a bad thing. But again, there is much room for improvement in this lead. Waltham, The Duke of 18:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

a*n* offset (I couldn't correct it due to "semi protection"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jens-Erik (talk • contribs) 11:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for noticing!--Old Moonraker (talk) 16:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Can we have a sound file of the famous tune of the chimes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jens-Erik (talk • contribs) 10:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

=Sorry readers, I hit the wrong button whilst editing, so my comments are incomplete. Will explain properly in the next day or so.

Chris McKayCgmckay (talk) 09:03, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Big Ben’s Clapper.The link to Houghton-le-Spring is totally inaccurate and should be removed.

The first bell Big Ben was fitted with a huge internal clapper that was forged at Houghton-le-Spring. See Illustrated London [ILN] 15 Nov 1856. This can be seen fitted to the bell when it was tested, see ILN 27 Dec 1856. After Big Ben I cracked a new internal clapper, much smaller in size was made and fitted to big Ben II. Note that the internal clapper was intended to chime the bell (and not strike the hour), probably for national events, but was never used. This clapper can be seen clearly in a photo of around 1950, (see p 120 ‘Big Ben: The Great Clock and Bells at the Palace of Westminster' [BBGCBPW] by myself). The internal clapper was removed in 1956 (Ref Dent papers in the WCC collection, Guildhall Library, London) and the clapper ball now is on show in the first visitor room. This is shown in the H-le-S web site; there is no evidence I know of that this was made at Houghton.

The hour is struck on the Big Ben by an external clock hammer. The arms of the hammer were replaced in 1990, see p200, BBGCBPW. The heavy hammer head was replaced with a lighter one in 1863, see p 170 BBGCBPW. So, the H-le-S web site’s claim is I am afraid wrong.

The H-le-S article refers to the clapper inside the bell as ‘shattering’; I think they have mixed this up with the cracking of Big Ben II and I can find no reference in Hansard to a shattered clapper.

Perhaps readers might find me a bit ‘picky’ but the propagation of wrong information brings no credit to site managers and the spreading of error, once started, is impossible to check

Chris McKayCgmckay (talk) 10:23, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

what are "the pips" continually referenced in this article as what the BBC had to make do with during Big Ben's downtime? 84.153.184.144 (talk) 20:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

It'a a wikilink: just click on it. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:27, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Ralph Hengham may have paid for a 13th-century clock tower at Westminster, but probably didn't (citing his entry on ODNB). Even if true, there's no connection with the 19th-century edifice. This fabrication keeps keeps coming back, though. --Old Moonraker (talk) 11:00, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Afterthought: the original addition — thanks "WikiBlame" — noted the distinction between the mediaeval tower and the current one, but this was later struck out. --Old Moonraker (talk) 11:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the old tower would warrant a mention in the background section of a comprehensive article on Big Ben, if only because the modern tower stands on nearly the same spot as the old one. I'm venturing into original-research territory here, but if it weren't for the mediaeval clock the new one might never have been built. Barry's original design for the Palace of Westminster featured no clock, and neither did any of the other 91 competing designs (which makes perfect sense, as there was no such requirement in the competition brief); it was added in the approval process, as the designs were scrutinised by Parliament.

All that having been said, this is not a comprehensive article on Big Ben, and there are much more relevant (and fascinating) things missing. And before anyone says "so fix it", I might mention that I want to, but for me this is a project far into the future, and I am still lagging behind with my primary project, namely the Palace itself and its planned daughter articles. Despite its disproportionate fame, the Clock Tower is only part of a much bigger building. Waltham, The Duke of 13:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Was there a clocktower in the old PoW? There isn't one in this engraving, or Knyff's of 1723, but there seems to be a sundial on the gatehouse. Anybody know?--Old Moonraker (talk) 16:14, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

There was, and you can see it in the engraving of your first link; it stood across New Palace Yard from Westminster Hall, with the fountain between them. I cannot find the Knyff engraving to which you are referring, but it wouldn't show the tower anyway, because Parliament had ordered Christopher Wren to demolish it around 1707 (when he was also engaged in the repair/conversion of St Stephen's Chapel). I don't have my sources here, but I can say that the tower's bell, Great Tom, was sold to St Paul's Cathedral, en route to which it fell off its cart and cracked. It was re-cast (twice) and now hangs in the cathedral's south-western tower; it has fittingly filled in for Big Ben on BBC on a couple of occasions. Waltham, The Duke of 01:27, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I see: that's the one I was calling a gatehouse. It looks much taller in the link you provided. I'll just go away and polish my glasses. --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:15, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

There needs to be an infobox giving information such as the height of the tower, weight of the bells, length of the hands, size of the faces, etc. Is there a standard infobox to use for clock towers and similar structures? 64.85.240.22 (talk) 23:37, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The traditional use of roman numerals on a clockface shows the 4 represented by IIII. Look at any church clock in Britain for confirmation of that. Unusually the Westminster Clock ('Big Ben') uses IV.

The IV was used by Joseph KNIBB on his Roman Striking clocks - two bells, one for I and the other for V to save power as there were never more than four rings. However, as Big Ben strikes the hours normally, can anyone explain why IV was preferred to IIII?

Could it have been ignorance by PUGIN or whoever designed/made the ironwork? Was there any correspondence in 'The Times' of the day, I wonder?

The oft quoted (but not necessarily correct) theory for the use of IIII is to balance with the opposing VIII. Someone may have thought that this was unecessary as the dial was so high but I've only just concocted that theory.

Perhaps we'll never know the real reason. Water clocks used IV, so the clock's proximity to the River Thames might be as good an explanation as any!

(Jackari2 (talk) 23:20, 13 April 2011 (UTC))

It is an interesting question, but I fear I have been unable to find a satisfactory answer. The parliamentary website only mentions the difference, and the book Big Ben: The Bell, the Clock and the Tower by Peter MacDonald, of which I own a copy, dedicates a page to the subject but still provides no explanation. I quote: "A notable departure from the usual practice is the use of IV at the four o'clock marking. Traditionally, clockmakers have favoured the use of IIII, although how this came about is something of a mystery. [...] It is not known why this tradition was not followed in the case of the Westminster Clock – it may have been no more than lack of communication between architect and clockmaker. Whatever the reason, whether mistaken or intended, it is one of those curiosities which go, perhaps, just a little way to make the clock so special. [...] It must be remembered that this was to be a noble and elegant clock, indeed the finest ever constructed, and no effort was spared to ensure that its appearance would befit its status." (pp. 36–37) Personally, I find it unlikely there was any functional reason behind this feature of the clock... But this is just me. Waltham, The Duke of 22:01, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

There's no mention of the pitch of the bell in the article. The pitches of the quarter bells are mentioned, just not Big Ben.

Also, I had to sign in to comment on the talk page? The talk page shouldn't be protected, too, should it? — MusicMaker5376 18:03, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

One section of the article says "The clock and dials were designed by Augustus Pugin." It's followed by "The clock's movement ... designers were ... Denison, and ... Airy ... ." This seems contradictory. Should the first sentence refer to a more specific portion of the clock? I.e. "The clock hands and dials..." or perhaps just "The clock dials..." Or did Pugin have overall design responsibility for the clock and gave requirements to Denison and Airy for the movement. Either way it seems like some clarification is in order. --J Clear (talk) 21:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I have removed "This extension is technically incorrect, but its usage is now entirely commonplace." (WP:PROVEIT).

• "This extension is technically incorrect" Say who? This is a POV and not one supported by the next cited source. (Fowler)
• "but its usage is now entirely commonplace". This is OR and not supported by the next cited source. (Fowler)

cited source:Fowler, H. W. (1976). The Concise Oxford dictionary of current English. First edited by H. W. Fowler and F. G. Fowler (Sixth edition ed.). Clarendon Press. p. 95. ISBN 0198611218. "Big Ben, great bell, clock, and tower, of Houses of Parliament"

--PBS (talk) 21:05, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I made this edit and removed "— unofficially named St. Stephen's Tower —" because the inline cited source ("Big Ben—Frequently asked questions". UK Parliament.) says

Q. Is it called St Stephen's Tower or the Clock Tower?

A. The name of the tower is the Clock Tower, not St Stephen's Tower. It was called St Stephen's Tower by Victorian journalists. They referred to anything to do with the House of Commons as news from 'St Stephens', as originally MP's used to sit in St Stephen's Hall.

We are not Victorians. See the picture and Wikipedia's description of St. Stephen's Tower, it is above St. Stephen's entrance (the public's entrance), to the Palace of Westminster. -- PBS (talk) 21:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

The tower is leaning http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15243118 2.177.89.112 (talk) 16:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Permission.

92.23.165.75 (talk) 12:22, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

This template is for requesting specific edits to this page, if you want to be able to edit it yourself you need to register an account (its free, very quick & requires no personal info at all, just a username & password) and then become autoconfirmed or confirmed--Jac16888 ^Talk 12:59, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a typo in the first sentence of the Clock/Dials section. At the end of the sentence 'clocks' should be 'clock'.

99.68.171.75 (talk) 05:17, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

 Fixed by Anthony Appleyard. Thanks! Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 10:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Reading this article, I noticed that in the intro section of this article, it states "The clock tower holds the largest four-faced chiming clock in the world". However, under 'Clock - Dials' it states: "The Clock Tower was once the largest four-faced clock in the world."

Which is correct? Is it the largest, or is it no longer the largest?

Carty239 (talk) 10:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The article currently states that the lean is caused by various underground excavations, such as the Jubilee line. However, according to two recent BBC articles, the lean is likely to have occured during the builing of the tower, and thus have been present long before the Jubilee line. Another potential cause cited by experts in those articles is the drying out of London Clay beneath the tower, which is also not mentioned in this article. Would it be possible to include this information and make the necessary corrections?

Carty239 (talk) 10:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

What does the picture in this section mean by "Superior part of the clock tower"? Is it just someone liking a part of Big Ben more or something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5Celcious (talk • contribs) 00:47, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it just means the top part, but I agree that it is not easily understood and should be reworded. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:05, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

According to this article, the tower will almost certainly be renamed soon in honor of Queen Elizabeth's diamond jubilee. Unclevinny (talk) 00:52, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

This article should be edited to reflect that whilst officially always known just as The Clock Tower because it did not have a formal name is to be named The Elizabeth Tower in a tribute to the Queen's Diamond Jubilee.

Csljohnkirby (talk) 08:51, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Please also specify the wording you'd prefer and where you'd like it inserted. Rivertorch (talk) 10:00, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

The name change is planned, but not yet implmented: see http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/offices/commons/house-of-commons-commission/minutes/decisions-2012/HCC-250612/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.231.229.98 (talk) 13:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

This page needs to be moved/renamed to Elizabeth Tower as per BBC News.

90.204.105.45 (talk) 11:03, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Not done for now: While Elizabeth Tower may be the new official name, the more common name is Big Ben for the time being. Wikipedia policy is to use the most commonly used name. The suggested move would be appropriate when the new name becomes more established. WaggersTALK 11:19, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• I agree that we should not move unless and until the new name actually appears in common use. I doubt that this will happen. For example, the London Eye, which overlooks this, is officially titled the EDF Energy London Eye but nobody cares. Warden (talk) 11:43, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

The name of the tower has not yet been changed. The House of Commons has said: "The House of Commons Commission welcomed the proposal to rename the Clock Tower Elizabeth Tower in recognition of HM The Queen's Diamond Jubilee, and will arrange for this decision to be implemented in an appropriate manner in due course," a spokesman said. Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/06/26/big-ben-clock-tower-to-be-renamed-queen-elizabeth-diamond-jubilee_n_1626658.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boypolar (talk • contribs) 12:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Seeing as how the tower at the Palace of Westminster is simply named, "Clock Tower", and the name "Big Ben" refers to the bell inside said tower, I see no reason for renaming the article, now, or when Parliament makes the renaming official. The BBC article mentioned above also makes it very clear that the tower itself was never named "Big Ben". WTF? (talk) 18:47, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• It's worth remembering though that the primary focus of this article is the tower, not the bell. (It was moved here from Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster). WaggersTALK 10:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar: London's famous Big Ben tower will change its name to Elizabeth Tower. The decision to change the British Parliament passed the 60th anniversary of the reign of Queen Elizabeth II, reports Reuters. Initial reactions are divided. While some believe that it makes no sense to change the name that is known as the Eiffel Tower or the Statue of Liberty, another good idea. Sightseeing in the British Parliament officially called the Clock Tower, but is better known by the name Big Ben, what is the name of the huge bell in the tower. 78.2.56.50 (talk) 23:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Can we stop this yet? Is it really necessary to initiate three new discussion in two days over this thing? The name of the bell inside the tower isn't changing -- the name of the tower is. End of story. WTF? (talk) 15:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I find myself in the curious position of agreeing with your view but disagreeing with the argument you use to advance it. The article covers both the tower and the bell, but the subject is the tower (of which the bell is a part). Therefore, what matters here is not the name of the bell but the popular name of the tower (which happens to also be the proper name of the bell), and this is and will most likely remain "Big Ben". Waltham, The Duke of 10:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, I dunno. I guess I say we let the Brits decide. After all, it's their tower, not ours. They didn't have any say when we renamed the Sears Tower to the Willis Tower, either,. . . So there! WTF? (talk) 21:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe at this date the tower is called St. Stephens Tower. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.135.203 (talk) 19:21, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

It used to be called that but it was never official. See http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/building/palace/big-ben/enquiries/ --DanielRigal (talk) 19:48, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's the thing: Big Ben is the bell; Elizabeth Tower is (or will be) the tower. This article, although currently called "Big Ben" is actually about the tower (following the move from Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster well documented in the archives of this talk page). "Elizabeth Tower" is a fairly new name and has yet to gain widespread popularity, so moving this article there doesn't seem like the right move at the moment. However there are two notable subjects called "Big Ben" that this article tries to cover and that doesn't seem right either.

It's the tower that's famous, but the bell is still notable in its own right - certainly there have been sufficient independent articles on the subject of the bell itself to meet WP:N. So we end up with the same old question - should there be separate articles (one about the tower, one about the bell) and if so what should they be called?

A few options to consider, there may be more:

I'm not suggesting a full on !vote just yet, just testing the water... WaggersTALK 14:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, the two topics are so closely related that it makes sense to cover both in a single article. It's not as if the article is excessively long. If, at some time in the future, the name "Elizabeth Tower" eclipses the name "Big Ben" in popularity (I doubt it ever will, but who knows?), then there would be a case for a split. -- Dr Greg  talk  18:20, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not impossible, and I remember there are other pairs of articles on towers and bells or even towers and clocks (see Spasskaya Tower and Kremlin Clock). The article would have to be further developed for that, however; there is no case for splitting it now. Besides, the separated articles would probably be called "Big Ben" (for the tower) and "Big Ben (bell)" (option #2). My feelings about the tower's renaming are ambivalent, but honestly, I am starting to tire of this whole "we need to show the new name in the title" business. And I know it will continue, because the renaming ceremony hasn't taken place yet so people will be slow to forget about the change and move on to something else. Waltham, The Duke of 11:40, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

This will happen in the future, so I didn't add it yet. And didn't really see the right section in which to put it. "London's emblematic Big Ben clock will ring for three minutes to celebrate the first day of the Olympic Games on Friday, organizers said, the first time it has rung outside its regular hours since the funeral of King George VI in 1952." [3] — MrDolomite • Talk 12:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm absolutely sure (and looking for a source) that Big Ben stroked 101 times for the Queen Mothers funeral in 2002. -- [[ axg ◉ talk ]] 12:50, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It has now happened. Some video here, if you want to add it as a link when you insert the item: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4AuXqQIroU --- Colin213.48.46.141 (talk) 16:27, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I have added this amendment. If it is okay, feel free to delete this note. CJRMcLaughlin (talk) 00:11, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Let's not have a dispute over the units here. This building is a British icon and WP:UNITS does not require metric units first for every UK related article. To put metric as primary in an article such as this is incongruous, to say the least. The metric equivalents can happily take second place in articles such as this, especially when it is clear that the references use imperial and the dimensions are round imperial values. Dkr1d9fs (talk) 20:08, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Please change: "Elizabeth Tower holds the largest four-faced chiming clock in the world and is the third-tallest free-standing clock tower." to "Elizabeth Tower holds the second largest four-faced chiming clock in the world (the clock faces on the clock tower of the Minneapolis City Hall (Minneapolis, Minnesota) are .1 metres larger) and is the third-tallest free-standing clock tower." because the current information is incorrect and should be corrected. Reliable source: Wikipedia page on world's largest clock faces.Sometimefixer (talk) 13:00, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Not done for now: Wikipedia cannot be used as a source, and the source on the List of biggest clock faces article does not explicitly state that the Minneapolis City Hall clock is a chiming clock tower. If you can provide a source that explicitly states that the Minneapolis City Hall clock tower is the largest chiming clock tower in the world, I would be inclined to make the change you requested. However, your proposed wording would add way too much confusing detail to a lead section and so would have to be trimmed down. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 13:41, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

please change storeys to stories

72.211.244.75 (talk) 23:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Done RudolfRed (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Undone. In British English, "storeys" is the correct plural of storey. -- Dr Greg  talk  18:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

In regards to the "Big Ben" nickname, there's also speculation that the clock is named after inventor Benjamin Banneker for his scientific contributions of the era. Banneker, in the mid-18th century, was the inventor of one of the first finely accurate mechanized clocks (source: http://www.bnl.gov/bera/activities/globe/banneker.htm).

This is my first Wiki edit request, so my apologies if I missed a formatting element. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jwalidea (talk • contribs) 19:06, 10 November 2012‎

I've altered your {{editrequest}} to a {{edit semi-protected}} because the protection level only warrants the latter. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Apologies, that was me. (User:Jwalidea didn't use a template, so I added what I mistook for the correct one.) --McGeddon (talk) 19:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

 Not done, anyway - the source given does not appear to confirm the statement. It's a short profile of Banneker that backs up his contributions in the field of clockmaking, but it does not mention the naming of Big Ben, even obliquely. --McGeddon (talk) 19:51, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Same fanboy managed to include the almost exact picture twice, one ostensibly to show the dial. It looks silly and should be removed, its description added to the picture actually showing the dial. --79.223.30.198 (talk) 09:36, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

On the malfunctions,breakdowns and other outages please include the bells being stopped on 17th April 2013 during Margaret Thatchers funeral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.165.33 (talk) 20:22, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

@86.14.165.33:  Done WaggersTALK 10:20, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The article language sometimes reads slightly like a magazine or tourist guide. There are several unwarranted superlatives, and not enough technical information. I'm not even sure what "the unique nature of this sound has been considerably diluted" means. I don't really think it's particularly important how many films it's appeared in. It's appeared in a lot of coffee table books and video games, too. Compare this with the article on the Golden Gate Bridge where popular references are mostly put in another article where they don't interfere with encyclopedic content. 76.102.1.129 (talk) 15:51, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Request to change article title to 'Elizabeth Tower' for the same reason that Tower Bridge's article is not titled 'London Bridge.' 24.73.22.157 (talk) 23:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Tower Bridge has always been different from London Bridge - I assume you're not local. Johnbod (talk) 03:46, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

And Big Ben (The Great Bell) has always been different from the Clock Tower (now known as Elizabeth Tower). Do a Google Images search for "London Bridge" and you'll see that most of the images are actually of Tower Bridge - apparently it's a common confusion, just as "Big Ben" is often mistakenly used to refer to the clock tower. It's a good analogy. WaggersTALK 07:40, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd like this article to be 'Elizabeth Tower' too as that's the correct name, and Big Ben is a different entity (namely the bell, which is notable in its own right and warrants a separate article), just as Tower Bridge and London Bridge are different entities with separate articles. The issue we have is this: Wikipedia's naming convention requires that we use the commmon name, not (necessarily) the official name. The guidance says "if an organization changes its name, it is reasonable to consider the usage since the change" - so what we need to establish is that since the official name change, the tower is more commonly referred to as 'Elizabeth Tower' than 'Big Ben'. WaggersTALK 08:05, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

You'll have a job - it has made little impact yet. Johnbod (talk) 03:46, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

How tall is Big Ben? It looks ginormous just in the photos! It must be even bigger in real time! I had no idea it was now called Elizabeth Tower, that is, until now! This web article gave me great feedback on Big Ben. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:6EEC:BE09:8824:8B5A:202D:C7E7 (talk) 04:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

FYI, Big Ben is not the tower, it's the bell inside the tower! It's a common misconception to call the tower Big Ben. --124.180.168.76 (talk) 14:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"Prime Minister Cameron" is not correct. I assume the writer has gotten confused with President. When speaking or writing about the prime minister, he is referred to as "the Prime Minister" or "The Rt Hon David Cameron MP". The prime minister is addressed as "prime minister" - it is NEVER correct to use "Mr Prime Minister" or "Prime Minister Cameron". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.79.114 (talk • contribs) 11 October 2013 22:04 UTC

Now fixed. -- Dr Greg  talk  22:24, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Suggest mentioning that the dial, unlike most Roman numeral dials, uses iv and not iiii as the symbol for 4.

203.173.9.136 (talk) 11:24, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: the statement that most dials use iiii needs sourcing. --Stfg (talk) 11:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

In one part it says it was finished in 1858 but in another it says 1859. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.101.236 (talk) 23:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

It is my understanding that the earlier name for the clock tower was St Stephen's Tower.86.156.79.59 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:01, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

That's already mentioned in the article. -- Dr Greg  talk  16:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

the bbc have confirmed the big ben chimes and bong at 6pm are live on the radio 4 news

email dated 24 jan 2014

Hi Ian,

The chimes are live.

Best,

Ben

Ben WhybrowBBC Radio 4 and 4 Extra Publicity

1st Floor | BBC Brock House, 19 Langham St, London W1W 6BP|M: 07718 695384|Twitter @bennywhybrow| www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 | BBC Media Centre: www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews

92.24.159.107 (talk) 18:16, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Hallo, I am from Germany. I think it's interesting to add the following notes in lilypond-syntax:

Chimes on hour:

I'am not authorized. Please discuss. Best wishes --CaS2000 (talk) 16:32, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

The music is already in the Westminster Quarters article. I'm not sure it's worth having it here as well. -- Dr Greg  talk  23:24, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

More in the league of 30 stories I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.173.226.197 (talk) 14:20, 11 September 2013‎

Agreed, storey seems to be a subjective measurement and most sources seem to put 1 storey at 10 feet. Since this was only sourced to a subheading of a US website article, I've cut it. --McGeddon (talk) 19:53, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm dubious about the given height of the "four clock dials" at 55m vs 96m for the tower in total. That figure might be correct for the crinkly base of the wider section that holds the clock dials. See File:Elizabeth Tower 2014-09-21 151MP.jpg for an image with as close to accurate proportions as you will find anywhere. Do we have a source for this? -- Colin°^Talk 20:33, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The reference for the tower height, which includes the 16 storeys claim, is this one. I can't find a reference for the height of the clock face though.

The text was added to the article in this edit in June 2005 which claimed to be merging information from the Clock Tower article. However looking at that article around the same time, I don't see the same text there. WaggersTALK 12:00, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The tower used to be St Stephen's Tower, but is now called Elizabeth Tower. The bell is called Big Ben. People often misname the tower Big Ben, but that doesn't mean the tower is nicknamed Big Ben.--78.146.175.69 (talk) 13:17, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the article explains all this. --McGeddon (talk) 19:54, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

No No No! The tower has never been officially been called St Stephen's Tower. Prior to it being named the 'Elizabeth Tower', it was merely known as 'The Clock Tower'. The confusion may arise because there is a St. Stephen's Tower in the Palace of Westminster but it is a smaller tower above St. Stephen's entrance. It is known that Victorian journalists often (erroneously) referred to the tower as St. Stephen's tower, but it is also known that they tended to refer to anything to do with the Palace of Westminster as St. Stephen's [some thing or other], probably adding to the confusion. 86.144.68.13 (talk) 18:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

The statement that "The tower holds the largest four-faced chiming clock in the world..." is contradictory to the established List of largest clock faces that the "Minneapolis City Hall, 7.0 meter clocks on four sides with chimes on the quarter, half, and full hour. 345 feet (105 m) tower. Largest four-faced chiming clock." whereas the next biggest is "Big Ben, London, 6.9-meter clocks on all four sides of this 96-meter tower built in 1859."

I would propose changing the statement on this page to read "The tower holds the second largest four-faced chiming clock in the world (Minneapolis City Hall being the first)."64.122.147.30 (talk) 16:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)64.122.147.30 (talk) 16:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Done Thank you. Mlpearc (open channel) 19:18, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Dear Wikipedians,

I am proposing a change to the main image at the top right of the article.

• Newer and clearer image.
• Provides better perspective from street view that average reader will see.
• Multiple faces of clock provides depth of subject, rather than 2D side on view.
• Better weather provides a more distinct backdrop for the subject in question.
• Easier to gain understanding of true height and size of the clock tower.
• More recent and updated image

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. My only thought is to improve the article. Cheers. EzykronHD (talk) 13:09, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

It's a shame about the scaffolding on the tower in the background, but otherwise I'm happy with the change. It's good to refresh the image every so often and certainly the one you're suggesting is fresher than the current main image. WaggersTALK 13:44, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, I claim WP:COI, as the OP prominently mentions Lachlan Fearnley on his account page, and the newer image was contributed by Fearnley at Commons. This is also the second attempt to place the image. The first time it was just put in place without so much as a by your leave. I disagree as to the improved quality of the new image: its resolution isn't much greater than the present image; the top of the tower is out of focus, ill-lit (hour-hand design is indistinct), or hidden (the openwork through which the bell sounds are heard is almost completely hidden), and that is our emphasis here; and the distractiion of the uncorrected tapering and unreal blue sky (the sky of the present image matches the slate roof, and that is more appealing). If we need to have fresh main images from time to time, let's think about rotating through some of those in secondary positions. If this image needs to be placed, let it be in a secondary position to start (although I'm dubious about placing it at all, given the apparent COI). Dhtwiki (talk) 18:54, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Existing images

@ Dhtwiki, thanks for bringing up those points. I agree, there are certainly some flaws, no image will be perfect. My intent was WP:BOLD and in good faith. I am open to suggestions to allay your concerns, perhaps to release the image to the public domain and remove any references if that helps. I think the best solution would be to trial a rotation of images for a period of time and see how the wider Wikipedia community reacts. As we know, talk pages often have little traffic and can be slow to generate a thorough discussion with multiple participants. Our opinions should be irrelevant compared to the wider community. Regarding the article as it currently stands, there are two images from almost the same vantage point. Perhaps they could be merged to remove redundancy. EzykronHD (talk) 12:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to address the issue of WP:COI. The photographer is either you or someone else you're intent on promoting. That negates WP:BOLD as I understand it. I'm not dissatisfied with the present main image. I only proposed the possibility of rotation of images because of Waggers' comment. I don't think the main image needs to be changed periodically for freshness' sake. What we might use more of is images that further explicate the tower's and clock's inner functionality and workings, such as an image of the mechanism governing the chime bell ringing sequences (plus some explanatory text). However, I don't think your photo belongs on the page, not just because of COI, but because it doesn't add anything, it doesn't explicate something not already addressed. Plus, it's a badly composed (the distractingly shrouded - or scaffolded, someone said - structure to the right which, at thumbnail size, appears to be a cloud or puff of steam), uncorrected (no perspective control, thus the startling tapering, which a human observer would mentally compensate for) photo. The left photo thumbnail you just posted doesn't have either of those flaws, although it does have the too-bright cyan sky. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:40, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Dhtwiki Thanks for your reply. I feel you are wrongly assuming things about me for no reason and you're not assuming WP:AGF. Myself or any of the countless wikipedia photo contributors have nothing to be gained, the image is free to be used commercially for anyone worldwide. I've already offered to have the image uploaded to Commons again with no reference to my name or account, I have no problem with it. I'm happy to post it in the public domain with no required attribution. Under your philosophy, anyone who takes a photo would never contribute to wikipedia without having COI. To give you an example, have a look at Diliff, who is a great contributor to Wikipedia, on his talk page. User_talk:Diliff#Replacing_perfectly_fine_photos_with_your_own_ones. He is a great wikipedian, and he routinely edits articles with his own picture because he genuinely wants to improve the article. Should he be forbidden from doing so as it is COI?

To address your concerns individually:

• I think you need to address the issue of WP:COI - Image can be reuploaded to a different account, all mentions to my account or name can be removed, image can be posted to public domain to remove any perceived conflict of interest.
• I don't think the main image needs to be changed periodically for freshness' sake. That's an opinion which I respect, but myself and others think having a rotation to keep the article fresh is a good thing.
• it doesn't explicate something not already addressed
  • Provides better perspective from street view that average reader will see.
  • Multiple faces of clock provides depth of subject, rather than 2D side on view.
  • Better weather provides a more distinct backdrop for the subject in question.
  • Easier to gain understanding of true height and size of the clock tower.
  • More recent and updated image

I acknowledge your points regarding composition, scaffolding, and correction. My comment regarding this is that each and every image on Wikipedia could be critiqued in similar ways. The image was not post-processed, it was taken from the lens as is. The sky colour is reflected in the same colour as the one posted in the thumbnail. I hope that addresses your concerns. EzykronHD (talk) 09:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history, I see that you originally placed your image on 3 November 2013. That placement replaced the current one, which is by Diliff, but was not placed by him (and thus no COI there). Then, this article has had the main image replaced on 8 April 2014, to a different image, then back to the Diliff image on 23 April 2014, before your recent attempt to replace it again with your image. I'd say this article is not in need of a fresh image, it's in need of people slowing down this constant main image replacement. Then, I took a look at Diliff's talk page you reference, which regards Fountains Abbey. Note that, while his image was accepted, it was not without demur; and Diliff did not respect WP:BRD, as he merely reverted the revert of his image placement. So, I don't think his actions there serve as a model. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Dhtwiki Thanks, this has been a good discussion, and it's nice to hear your opinion even if we don't always agree. You haven't responded to any of the points I've listed above, so from my understanding it's just a matter of subjective merit of each picture, and your philosophy of keeping articles stagnant vs keeping them fresh, which is perfectly reasonable. What I'm proposing is this: I'll make another edit and slightly change the article. Once the article is edited it will gain a lot more exposure from wikipedians, and after this we can continue the discussion with a wider audience. This would be the most logical way to gain a consensus on what's best for the article moving forward. EzykronHD (talk) 11:32, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Consensus is gained on the Talk page, not by just going ahead and making edits once they're disputed. Not only have you not gained a consensus on this go-around, but you effectively got no, or negative, consensus the last time your picture was taken down, just a few months ago. You have done little to allay or address my concerns, because you evidently have not given up trying to place your flawed photo in prime position in the article. Dhtwiki (talk) 15:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Dhtwiki, I've been nothing but respectful to you so far. It's quite obvious that you are "trolling" now though. I changed the image in November - it stayed there until the 10th of April when it was changed by "Ceaton89" to an inferior image by guess who - "Ceaton89". Funny how you weren't crying about conflict of interest then. On this talk page there is twice the number in favour to those against - that is a consensus my friend. If you feel strongly about this, please go ahead and address my points listed above and gather your own consensus than using a distraction tactic. But if you are going to try to use a "brute force" type of edit war, I will be calling in editors to arbitrate. EzykronHD (talk) 12:12, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Revised images

The image proposed above, which was inserted until now, is just awful. Most people don't see Big Ben from just below, looking up. It's a huge clock tower so that most people will see it from a distance. And the standard way of presenting buildings (unless one is being deliberately artistic) is to ensure the verticals are true. David Illif's version of the tower is the most eye-catching in thumbnail, with vivid blue sky and sunshine. Some other pictures in the article were not adding anything much so I've revised the selection to include different aspects. I have myself taken a good image (below) of the tower, including the surrounds, which is very high resolution. However it isn't as colourful or simple as David's. So I'm not going to be bold about replacing it.

-- Colin°^Talk 19:33, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Looks like you were actually bold in replacing it! In any case, I agree; while I initially supported a change in principle in the above discussion I wasn't overly sure, and User:Dhtwiki raised some very valid points. David Illif's 2007 image is preferable to his 2006 image, which is the one we had previously used at the top of the page. WaggersTALK 11:24, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Did this feeling against EzkronHD's photo exist last month in August? If it did, it didn't get expressed. EzkronHD felt he had consensus with Waggers' support and I couldn't be sure that he didn't. I know the discussion we had was onerously long-winded and, especially at the end, contentious; but absent anyone else joining in, I didn't have much to go on except my own aesthetic sense, or my hardly vetted and possibly erroneous interpretation that it was WP:COI for a photographer to promote his own work in such a way. I myself got to like the EzkronHD's photo better after some helpful edits—removing the distracting background structure (as well as some slight color alteration?)—were made before final placement.

The new photo that Colin included here is certainly an excellent photo, as it shows more of the grounds, and Westminster Palace, etc., than other photos I've seen here, in good focus, with attractive coloration, but with flawed composition. The cropped version shown here makes me think, "What is that monstrosity in the background?" The un-cropped version is better in that its attractive foreground shifts focus considerably and leaves The Shard's impact lessened. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:18, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, wrt the effect of The Shard on the "composition", well I wish you'd spoke up when the developers were seeking planning permission! Looks like something out of Doctor Who. No, I'm not proposing either as lead images since David's is simpler and more colourful for a lead. What mine does have, is extremely high resolution and uniquely a viewpoint level with the base of the clock -- so there is no vertical perspective distortion (most other shots are either very distant -- so miss off the base or are low resolution -- or are shot from below). Another photo (left)

shot from the same viewpoint, shows the tower in even more context with surrounds and other buildings that make London's skyline. I think this wider one might be useful to provide the reader with an idea of where it fits in modern London. Perhaps there is room in the first section. I wouldn't replace the photo with double-decker buses, though, as that one nicely shows how the clock face is visible from far. -- Colin°^Talk 07:13, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Regarding speaking up, you are one with strong feelings in the matter. Did you miss the discussion we had before? I, too, like the Illif photo, the 2006 version, not the 2007 one, where the too-bright, too-clear sky, colorful as it is, is distracting. However, I think that if we are going to be changing photos monthly, we should have a gallery or a list where displaced photos can be kept. Some people might miss the EzkronHD photo, and they shouldn't have to look far to find it. Your new photo has flags hanging limply, but otherwise is a splendid photo. I see that it's already been nominated as a featured picture and has strong support. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Dhtwiki, the comment about "speaking up" was a joke. There is no good argument for changing photos monthly. Goodness me, we all have better things to do than argue about what the lead image should be next month. Both of Diliff's images have good qualities and are good choices for the lead. The colours are a bit muted on the 2006 one (not just the sky, but the shields and gold work). EzkronHD's photo can be found on Commons and you are welcome to create a page on Commons where you display high quality photos of the tower/clock. That's what Commons is for, and meets a multi-wiki need. Really, there are lots of OK photos of Big Ben and I'm not sure EzkronHD's even qualifies as as a QI. From the look of the "usage on Wikipedia", someone has stuck it in the "London history" template so it is widely displayed. Don't really see what that shot has to do with London history so I suspect it won't last long there. What I'm interested in now is whether there is support for another "in context" photo such as the landscape "Palace of Westminster and surrounds" shot in the body of the article. -- Colin°^Talk 09:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm in two minds about the "in context" thing. The image looks great and it does make sense to show what the tower looks like in comparison to its surroundings. But on the other hand we need to be careful that we don't expand the scope of this article and start adding content that really belongs in the Palace of Westminster article. I don't think adding an image like this does that, but it's something to be wary of. WaggersTALK 10:08, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

One of the images Colin has supplied should be used because each supplies top-to-bottom coverage of the tower; has an oblique view of the tower, showing the clocks multi-faceted nature (one of EzykronHD's complaint/selling points); and shows the colorful trim to good effect (the main advantage of EzykronHD's photo). Dhtwiki (talk) 23:58, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

To answer Dhtwiki's question on my input or lack thereof, I'm no expert on photography so didn't want to get heavily involved when it was fairly clear there are others more qualified to comment than me. Wikipedia is, after all, a meritocracy not a democracy. WaggersTALK 09:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Not to start this discussion up again unnecessarily, but it's funny that it was thought that EzkronHD had consensus when only one person agreed with him (and another somewhat disagreed), and the other 'interested party' (ie, me) wasn't even contacted to discuss the change. I only just stumbled across this discussion now but in future it would be better to at least try to make involved parties aware of the discussion! Ðiliff «» (Talk) 12:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I have removed this sentence about the numerals on the dials:

"The dial also has an adapted 'X', used for number '9', '10', '11' and '12'. This is due to Pugin and his dislike of the numeral 'X'.[citation needed]"

The shape of the "X" is a perfectly normal black letter ("Gothic") capital letter, and the assertion is unsupported. Thomas Peardew (talk) 19:50, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

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Leads now to pdf that seems to support text. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:59, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

This article seems to lack a description or depiction of Big Ben's mechanism that translates the rotational movement of the chiming train to the clocking or chiming of the individual chime bells. Perhaps a chime pin barrel is used, such as is shown in this YouTube video, which is common, on a small scale, in mantel clocks that have Westminster chimes. Can information on that mechanism be supplied here? Dhtwiki (talk) 23:33, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

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Wasn't this the actual name of the tower before the awful, royalist pandering, new name?82.34.106.120 (talk) 22:41, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

No. St Stephen's Tower is a different tower in the Palace of Westminster. WaggersTALK 10:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

See also Talk:Big Ben/Archive 2#St Stephen's Tower -- PBS (talk) 09:39, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

The youtube version is here: https://www.youtube.com/embed/Qad6Q_RbQQ0?rel=0Evidently the U.S.-based "science channel" in its 2016 "unearthed secrets at the palace" series (https://www.sciencechannelgo.com/unearthed/secrets-at-the-palace/ ) telecast the source video. I believe this would make an excellent addition to external references, but I lack the resources to pursue. Canhelp (talk) 17:09, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—104.219.46.242 (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

You haven't explained what you think is wrong with the coordinates, and they appear to be correct. If you still think the coordinates are erroneous, please give a clear explanation of the problem. Deor (talk) 21:14, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Regarding User:Fluffy5jess2's edit that "As of 10th April 2017, repairs ARE underway." - are there any reliable sources confirming that this work has begun? I can only find one obscure source saying anything like this (a recent newsx.com article saying that "Refurbishment work began on Saturday on London’s Elizabeth Tower"). If it's true, it seems surprising that nowhere else has covered this. --McGeddon (talk) 16:31, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

It says work has begun. what more proof do you want, the queen to write you a golden letter conforming it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fluffy5jess2 (talk • contribs) 15:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I'd like a reliable source that confirms it. If all we have is a single "NewsX Bureau" source with an anonymous byline, and no other sources confirming it, it's possible that NewsX Bureau was mistaken, or that they mean something else when they say that "work began". Beginning actual work on the refurbishment seems like it would have a press release and some cheerful tabloid coverage, at the minimum, and it's striking that this doesn't appear to be the case. --McGeddon (talk) 14:38, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Why would they be taking huge boxes up to the top on cranes then? answer that one clever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fluffy5jess2 (talk • contribs) 14:19, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I read this below, can anyone provide any context or proof that the motor in big ben was stolen

Issa Issa Qawasmi:

"Big Ben," the great British clock and Britain’s national symbol is actually stolen. But where was it stolen from and when did it happen?

Let me tell you the story as my dad told it to me, having heard it from my grandfather who used to go to the Jaffa Gate square on a daily basis to watch the great Ottoman Clock. The Ottomans built a 13 meter high tower in order to place a clock on it for the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the Ottoman Sultan Abed Al-Hamid the second’s ascent to the throne in 1909.

My Grandfather was a child then, and he, like other Jerusalemites, celebrated this occasion with the presentation of a grand clock, which shows the time to passerby's from all directions, in Jerusalem.

This clock was a masterpiece which cost 20 thousand French Francs back then.

This piece of art, which is now hidden in the National British Museum, was stolen from its tower in Jaffa Gate on orders from the British military officer Allenby who entered Jerusalem in 1917 after the city fell from the Ottomans that year.

The clock would sound its four bells every hour until, in 1922, it was dismantled and transferred to a tower built near the New Gate so that it could be stolen after the Jewish “Lovers of Zion” group issued a decision to remove the tower from the Jaffa Gate that same year.

The [Arab] crowd opposed this decision with violence and large demonstrations. Rumors spread that the military governor of Jerusalem, Stores, had revoked the decision to remove the clock and suggested that it be placed on a small tower which would be built next to the New Gate because Mustafa Kemal Ataturk opposed the decision on the grounds that it is an Ottoman monument.

However, Stores ultimately revoked all of these decisions, arguing that they were irrational ideas. Instead, he decided to demolish the tower, steal the clock, and transfer it to London. There, its original Palestinian motor was disassembled and installed in Big Ben, the famous British symbol, which is in fact stolen from Jerusalem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.127.66 (talk) 23:11, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Did he eat Jaffa Cakes while reclining on the ottoman? See the article for reliably sourced information. . . dave souza, talk

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"Is usually extended to refer to the clock and the clock tower as well"? Who says this? I thought it was quite commonly known that Big Ben just referred to the bell, not the clock or clock tower. Vorbee (talk) 16:50, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

FAQ: "The Elizabeth Tower is the name of the famous tower of Parliament - more popularly known as Big Ben. Although often referred to as Big Ben, this is actually the nickname of the bell housed within the Elizabeth Tower - and Big Ben's official name is the Great Bell." Though "The Elizabeth Tower" is a neologism for the clock tower, a re-naming five years ago which I for one didn't notice. No sense of tradition, these people. . dave souza, talk 14:57, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

So the bell is Big Ben (GreatBell) and the tower is Elizabeth Tower (ClockTower/StStephensTower); does the clock have any names? If so, they should be added to the article (as the tower and bell already have alternate names listed. -- 67.70.35.17 (talk) 05:33, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

As the closure did not appear on ITN, would it be possible to improve the article for a MP listing on 10 April 2018 - 160th anniversary of the bell's recasting as a convenient 'hook.' Jackiespeel (talk) 16:39, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@Jackiespeel: What is a MP listing? Firebrace (talk) 20:50, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Ah, the Main Page. Best not to use acronyms; they are barriers to entry which confuse and put off new users. Firebrace (talk) 17:56, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Is there anything worthwhile that can be said about the use of the clock tower to imprison those held in contempt of parliament? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 13:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be much written about the "prison room", which is halfway up the tower. According to this transcript, the room, was only used once as a prison, in 1880 to house Charles Bradlaugh for a night, and that use seemed possibly incidental more than the the purpose for which the room, which is hardly described, was built. It might do to link to one of those articles in the underused "See also" section or under "External links" for the podcast transcript, if it hasn't been referenced. Dhtwiki (talk) 07:54, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

shouldn't pages like this be locked from pranksters? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:302:D1E8:890:396E:9E3F:A345:8631 (talk) 18:25, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

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I haven't been to this article in a while, and I don't know how long it has been this way, but I must say the introductory paragraph is outstanding.

Big Ben is the nickname for the Great Bell of the clock at the north end of the Palace of Westminster in London and is usually extended to refer to both the clock and the clock tower. The tower in which Big Ben is located is officially called the Elizabeth Tower; originally just the Clock Tower, it was renamed in 2012 for the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II.

This explains why the article is titled the way it is. As the recent RM demonstrates, for better or for worse, to determine the title of a given article topic WP favors following usage in reliable sources over "official names". Frankly, in many cases, perhaps in this one, I think official names should also be changed to reflect the most commonly used name. In any case, when there is a conflict, as is the case here, I think it's most useful to readers to use the commonly used name rather than the official name. So kudos to the editors who came up with the WP:COMMONNAME concept, and to the editors here who have followed it to retain this title, and explain it in the intro. This is truly a great example of how articles are titled on WP, and why. --В²C ☎ 20:04, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

"The tower [...] was [...] the biggest [...] clock in the world"

I guess the clock in turn was the smallest tower in the world? 91.10.35.37 (talk) 11:36, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Fixed. -- Dr Greg  talk  17:36, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

170.211.122.125 (talk) 15:39, 8 January 2019 (UTC)Big ben is the largest bell in the world

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:36, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Speculation on the origin of the name Big Ben exist both in 3.1 Great Bell and in 4 Nickname with some duplication. Sam Tomato (talk) 05:32, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

What's the status of the renovation? Last entry was a year and a half ago. Sca (talk) 14:30, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Reference is given to MP's who would like Big Ben to chime when Brexit happens on March 29 2019. Edit needed as Brexit has now been extended to October 2019 184.69.202.22 (talk) 19:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

 Done – I've just removed that mention. Not only is it past the date given without anything having happened, but it is about something that might happen as opposed to something that actually did happen. The other mentions in that section that I looked at are in the latter class. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:01, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

its such a fun design. but it does require klunky adjustments fairly regularly.little is published about this. there are many fixes that would make the click superlative.it would be nice to have a section for these.

for instance:

Hand winding. really? while it might be good exercise the separation is not perfect and regular winding by machine would give better precision.

(noting 'precision' is not the same as 'accuracy')

For accuracy, there are several tweaks the original design allows which could make the clock easier to manage, and more accurate.

among these are specific adjustments for weather weather greatly affects the clock and needs to be compensated for. i worked on these mechanisms designs which can make nearly perfect accuracy.

and for more precice tuning.. honestly, .4 seconds per day is not that great and could be tightened to a much finner degree. easily .001 or better.

many mechanical tricks are simply overlooked and unattended in the current configuration.its rather political. its not surprising. clock perfection is entirely different from click dsign.one looks at the error systems, rather than the going system.i still hope to explain this to the clock's caretakers, but nobody likes having someone new telling them how to run the setup. the completed clockmwould be adjusted perhapsmonce per month to keep it ultra accurate. 61 milliom for painting and patching seems high. too much scaffolding.

72.94.231.135 (talk) 15:02, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not publish WP:Original research. Dbfirs 11:50, 8 September 2019 (UTC)