Talk:Catalonia/Archive 6
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country
I am editing the definition to match the official definition of Catalonia because of the arguments exposed here:
- It's the official definition
- Valencian and Basque communities are stated as countries in their respective WP pages and those same political official status in Spain as Catalonia. The lack of use of the "Catalan country" is because of the extended use of the word Catalonia and does not mean it's not a country as the other "historical nationalities" are.
- Catalonia is a country according to Catalan Statute of Autonomy, Spanish Constitution, the Catalan Government, the Catalan Encyclopedia...
- The supposed lack of use of the term Catalan country ( in this WP article: In French, the country is called Catalogne ) can be explained because of historical reasons and does not reflect the current status of Catalonia, this is an Encyclopedia and its definition must be accurate and not rely on historical uses of region names for a present day definition.
Eloi.sanmartin (talk) 00:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
hello, I believe that the introduction of the article should put that Catalonia is a country, as well as the article puts Scotland, so also in the Catalan wikipedia is made as a country.--Nord oliver (talk) 23:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- Country is a vague term that can mean all sorts of things in different contexts, but most commonly will be taken to refer to an independent state, and regardless it's a description that is pretty rarely applied to Catalonia in most English-language sources I'm aware of (which would generally describe it as a "region" of the country of Spain). The UK itself is a bit of an odd case, and there are plenty of serious sources that describe Scotland as a [constituent] country of the UK, hence why it's appropriate for that article. It doesn't matter what the Catalan WP says of course, even if there is a direct translation that can be made of the words used. Also, the wording " .. is a country that is part of Spain as autonomous community in northeastern Iberian Peninsula" currenty there is pretty clunky and badly phrased English. I'm returning this to some variation of the wording that was happily there for a long time until earlier this month, relying on the official terminology. There might be better phrasing than what I end up with, but we need to stick to either common or official terminology when describing the place. N-HH talk/edits 19:22, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I am not a native English speaker, so I am sorry if I commit some mistakes.I edited the article, but my changes have been undone. I changed first sentence in the introduction "Catalonia [...] is an Autonomous Community" because the concept of Catalonia refers to the catalan nation or country. It is not my opinion, is what is said in the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia. In the preamble of the Statute is said "Catalunya és un país...", which can be translated to English as "Catalonia is a country...". However, I am conscious of the fact that Engllish speakers wouldn't use the term country to descrive Catalonia. This can be because Catalonia is not a sovereign state, but the term country is wider than that concept. It can refer to nation, as, for instance, Scotland and Wales are. It is widely accepted that Scotland is a country dispite it is not a state. Wheather Catalonia is a country or not cannot depend on the world knowledge about that. It is more a problem about the fact that English speakers do not know that Catalonia is a country, taking in consideration that it was one day a sovereign nation, it has an own and used language and history (and all the other reasons above).What I mean is that I do not see any reason why we can afirm that Scotland is a country and not Catalonia. It is possible too to find serious sources to afirm that Catalonia is a country, it was one day a principality, it has been an independent nation from Spain for several years, and it was one day annexed, but it is still a contry. You well said that English speakers would not use that term to descrive Catalonia, but what I think is that Wikipedia is an enciclopedia to learn what you do not know. In that case who think that Catalonia is not a country and is only a part of Spain is wrong, and Wikipedia is here to help them.All the sources to prove all that could perfectly be enclosed here, but it is only necessary go to "History of Catalonia" to do so.Furthermore, taking in account that 51%nof Catalans would like Catalonia to be an independent country and that a wider majority of people considers themselves as more Catalans than Spanish (see last CEO surveys), it resoults offensive to find in English WP that Catalonia is only a region.I can affirm that most Catalan philologists and historians would agree with my thesis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.214.210 (talk) 17:27, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for arguing your point here, but the problem remains that, as I said, in most English language sources, Catalonia - and especially the Catalonia being described here - is not usually referred to as a country (I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I'm fairly sure I won't be). That's the standard by which WP articles are written - what things are called and how they are described according to most serious, reliable external sources (not simply random English people btw), rather than what individual contributors here can argue they should be called, however impeccable the logic seems. That's the case even though country, indeed, can be used to refer to non-sovereign entities and even if the word "pais" is commonly found in Catalan or Spanish sources. The cultural geography and politics of Catalan nationalism can be - and are - explained regardless, both here and in other articles, such as Països Catalans and Catalan nationalism. N-HH talk/edits 10:51, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
In that case we should change the article about Scotland, shouldn't we? And please, don't tell me that Scotland is a true country, and that the case of Catalonia is only an opinion of some, and that we can find in reliable sources that Scotland is a Country. That's because the Catalan case is not well known in the world, it's not about a bad translation. You can argue your point using English sources and I can do the same using Catalan ones. The fact is that the article is about Catalonia and not about England, so in that case a Catalan source should be more reliable, shouldn't it? Anyway, if I cannot convince you (I'm sure I won't) what happens? I mean, what happens when in WP users aren't agree with each other? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.214.210 (talk) 14:04, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
- Again, by talking about what constitutes a "true" country, and by pressing on what Catalan language sources say, you're missing the point twice over. This isn't about logic or analytical proof, or arguing a case, or convincing the world of a little-known fact; plus, translation is rarely precise. The issue is much simpler than that: it's about what words are commnly used in the English language - in "official" documents and self-definitions, as well as in reliable and reputable third-party sources - to describe and classify things. Scotland is regularly called a country, including in ISO nomenclature for example and on the Scottish government website - but that's an issue for that page if you want to debate it. By contrast, and this is what matters here, Catalonia is more often AFAICT simply referred to as a region of the country of Spain, eg here by the BBC (which actually this article's lead avoids doing, so if anything you should count yourself lucky), or more formally - for example even on the Generalitat's website - as an "autonomous community", as our article does. You have to change what the rest of the English-speaking world does, and then come and get this page to reflect that, not make this page forge a new or minority path to prove a political point. Anyway, I'm just another editor, like yourself, with no special powers, but this debate and similar ones have been done to death in the past. You can always ask for a third opinion. Perhaps have a look at basic policies here as well, such as WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS. N-HH talk/edits 20:59, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
- ps: you can sign your contributions on talk pages by marking your post with four tildes.
- At the least you have to appreciate the Catalan nationalist viewpoint. I mean it is in the constitution as a country even if it doesn't meet our definition, It is a significant viewpoint. Furthermore there is reference everywhere in English Catalonia and Spain articles of the basque country. That doesn't meet out definition yet it it is still called a country. I don't see why everyone is knit-picking and cant respect and acknowledge well established viewpoints. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 05:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- As noted in comments above, the Catalan nationalist viewpoint is respected and represented, on this page and others relating to Catalan issues. The issue here is simply how we briefly define and categorise Catalonia in the opening sentence. And, as also noted, "country", which as a term has multiple definitions and meanings, is, regardless, simply not the main descriptor for Catalonia in mainstream English-language sources. By contrast, the "Basque Country" is commonly referred to in those words; although here the word country forms part of a proper term and in fact said entity would not commonly be referred to as being a country, odd though that might seem to some. Any nitpicking here is coming only from those constantly trying to take apart those rather simple points and make the basic question as highlighted above more complicated than it really is by turning it into some meta-debate about what Catalonia really "is" and by suggesting that the use or non-use of certain words is a grand political statement against Catalan independence (and, again, it's worth noting we do not use what is probably the most commonly found English-language term, region, which suggests the lead here is, if anything, overly sensitive to Catalan nationalism, not ignoring it). Btw your edit here is mischaracterised. The quote marks are not scare quotes, they are actual quote marks, as "nationality" is the literal translation of the Spanish word nacionalidad, but it does not quite make sense in English in that context. Again, the use of them is common in reputable sources, eg the Economist. N-HH talk/edits 09:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- At the least you have to appreciate the Catalan nationalist viewpoint. I mean it is in the constitution as a country even if it doesn't meet our definition, It is a significant viewpoint. Furthermore there is reference everywhere in English Catalonia and Spain articles of the basque country. That doesn't meet out definition yet it it is still called a country. I don't see why everyone is knit-picking and cant respect and acknowledge well established viewpoints. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 05:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
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Religion
The entire section, with subsections, was empty. we dont want that in an article. add content, then create sections as needed. heres what i removed:Mercurywoodrose (talk) 23:29, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
Political status of Catalonia
A user has added Catalonia is defined as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy. The Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia used the term "nation" before being modified by the Spanish Constitutional Court. I don't think it's correct to say Catalonia is defined as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy, but he doesn't let me change it. How could you solve this? — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 00:03, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
- What do the actual sources say?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:32, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- looking at the court case before the Spanish constitutional court, nation as used seems devoid of any actual legal meaning. Written as it is in the lead seems there is some undue weight.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- In the section "Legal challenge ...", many statements are made in the following paragraph that appear to need sourcing, one already being challenged:
- looking at the court case before the Spanish constitutional court, nation as used seems devoid of any actual legal meaning. Written as it is in the lead seems there is some undue weight.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- After four years of deliberations, the Constitutional Court of Spain assessed the constitutionality of the challenged articles and its binding assessment was released on June 28 of 2010. By a 6 to 4 majority, the Court's justices rewrote 14 articles and dictated the interpretation for 27 more, mainly relating to language, justice and fiscal policy. The judgement reassured that the term "nation" used in the preamble has no legal standing. It left without effect any of the legal clauses that could have guaranteed a true measure of self-government for Catalonia. It also abolished all the mechanisms that had been put in place to minimize the distortionary effects of the existing Spanish tax and transfer system.
- However, I've just read the La Vanguardia source of 2010, given after the last sentence above, and it seems to provide enough support for all the statements I've just quoted. Perhaps each statement needs to directly cite the source? Yet to answer the OP's question as best I can, there's no support in that source for asserting that "Catalonia is defined as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy". yoyo (talk) 02:12, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, I consider myself pretty impartial to the whole issue and I also don't find a mention of any "historical nation" in the source that's been posted. It may be true, indeed, but as it is, I find it somewhat misleading.--Dk1919 (talk) 23:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Map warriors
The articles of all the autonomous communities of Spain use the same type of map where it distinguishes itself to the region in red, the sea appears in blue and the rest of the country in yellow. Some independentists or nationalistic users insist on adding maps in the articles of Catalonia, Basque Country and Valencian Community as if these regions were countries of the European Union, to scale of the whole continent, of gray and green color, and there do not appear all the autonomous communities (as Canaries). It is absolutely intolerable and inadmissible. These regions must use the same type of map. Satesclop 15:41, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
- Why?
- I mean, as a Galician independentist person (and independence is still a non derogatory word in Spanish), why should these people have the same map, or speak the same language? I propose a referendum, you know, because democracy...--Froaringus (talk) 19:55, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
- I am not here to do politics. Your ideology is all the same to me. The reality is that they are Spanish regions. I do not know what they will be in the future but now yes.Satesclop 02:24, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think many non-nationalist and spanish nationalist readers would see autonomous communities (the main topic of these set of entries) are from an administrative standpoint roughly the same, and they value consistence, irrespective of how people in there feel or speak. Then there are other readers (both nationalist themselves and also people sympathetic towards the narrative of "nations without state") who deem appropiate to insert a feel-good map, making a fuss of it. Some of them would even probably try to weave a convoluted argument (attempting to rationalise the irrational) pointing out how their "Estatuto" says their territory is a "nationality", and, rightly so, (ta daaa!) the map needs to internationalise and be different from the rest, because any other solution would "insult them". Cheers.--Asqueladd (talk) 22:06, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
- It is not reasonable. Independently of the political ideas of the users, the reality is that Catalonia or the Valencian Community are regions of Spain, autonomous communities. There must be equality with the rest of Spanish regions. This green map is totally inappropriate and slanted.Satesclop 02:21, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Beware! Don't call them regions. Irrespective of what region actually means (a rather generic and non derogatory jack-of-all-trades term), users are going to come in here in order to pull a straw man out of it. The case of the Basque Country is different: you can make a case about the importance of the Treviño enclave being distinguished "a tad" better (hehe).--Asqueladd (talk) 10:00, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- It is not reasonable. Independently of the political ideas of the users, the reality is that Catalonia or the Valencian Community are regions of Spain, autonomous communities. There must be equality with the rest of Spanish regions. This green map is totally inappropriate and slanted.Satesclop 02:21, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
I addressed the issue on Talk:Valencian Community#Map warriors. Peter238 (talk) 03:32, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Lock
As the article has been locked by :@Ritchie333: I suggest to change the current version of the article to the previous consensus text. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 16:16, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- To clarify the proposal on the table, the current version here puts the (Madrid) Spanish names first, and the Catalan / Occidentale versions second, while the other version has them the other way round. There is also a difference in a footnote explaining the province's status following the 2006 Statute of Autonomy Consistent with our policy on full-page protection, I am hesitant on stepping into a deeply-held political dispute and simply protected on whatever the last version was. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:32, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- That's right. The language order here is alphabetical, while in the Valencian Country the order is according to officiality and usage. As you can read in the sources Satesclop is contesting Catalonia (is an autonomous community that) has been defined as a nation, just like Scotland and England. However, as "Spain is different" (an old fashioned politic style) Spain's Constitutional court rejected such declaration and replaced the term nation by the former denomination (nationality). This current result and the text (in this article) hide such reality. How would you solve the issue? — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 23:03, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 21 February 2016
Please remove the comma immediately after the closing parenthesis in the first sentence of the article. Thank you!—Granger (talk · contribs) 20:21, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- @Mr. Granger: The protection is since expired. Even so, I removed the comma for you anyway :) — This, that and the other (talk) 10:50, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
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Requested move 10 May 2016
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Speedy closed as unfounded (NAC). No such user (talk) 09:08, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
Catalonia → Catalunya – "Catalonia" violates WP article name policy on foreign names. It is not a majority usage. (Only in the U.K.) It is not how most people would look for the topic. We don't use "Saragossa" for the same reason. deisenbe (talk) 14:00, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. That's silly. It's Catalonia in English. Sources are so overwhelming that I'm not going to waste (more) time on this. — Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 14:32, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Snow close - User has not given a valid reason which supports the proposal. WP:Commonname, would support 'Catalonia'. -- AxG / ✉ / 10 years of editing 17:24, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - proposal is nonsense, current title is undoubtedly common name in English.--Staberinde (talk) 20:52, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose and snow close. This proposal was made under the assumption that "Catalunya" was the common name outside the UK, which does not appear to be the case. ONR (talk) 23:48, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Uhhh...no. — AjaxSmack 01:42, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Heck, even the Generalitat calls itself the "Government of Catalonia" in English. acomas (talk) 04:31, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Original research
There is plenty of it. Remember, we have to use WP:Secondary sources. Thanks. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 04:38, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
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Independence
So currently Junts pel Si controls the Generalitat, and they are pro-independence, and are beginning the creation of Catalunya as an independent entity. Would anyone object if I were to begin writing a section on Catalunya's road to independence? Regardless of your opinion on it, or on the constitution of Spain, that this is happening is indisputable. (2607:F470:6:5002:913C:E430:DB87:4DA6 (talk) 16:27, 1 September 2016 (UTC))
Respeto al Reino de España
Wikipedia surgió como una enciclopedia libre que tenía como único objetivo ofrecer información a los usuarios de forma gratuita. No podemos consentir que esta página, la de una Comunidad Autónoma de España, se convierta en un campo de batalla político en el que gestos como poner en primer plano un mapa de Cataluña EQUIPARÁNDOLA A OTRAS NACIONES DE EUROPA o como eliminar referencias al país al que pertenece (España). Dejemos de crear polémica y controversia con estos temas y editemos de forma más responsable. --Cd tenerife (talk) 15:43, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- This article is trying to be objective in this matter. Right now it is showing there is a big issue in Spanish and Catalan politics and we need to reflect it. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 06:24, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- No hay que confundir un proceso que quieren llevar a cabo ciertos partidos políticos independentistas en Cataluña con la REALIDAD OBJETIVA. Cataluña pertenece a España, nadie ha proclamado la independencia y ningún país del mundo lo reconoce como tal, pero viendo la línea que se está siguiendo, lo próximo será poner la estelada para "reflejar la realidad" que se quiere inventar. --Cd tenerife (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Location map
I have learned from the Help desk that there is a disagreement about what location map to use for this article. I understand that this argument is motivated by politics, and the issue of whether Catalonia is "part of Spain". I am not interested in that argument, and I don't know or care which side the participants in the argument are on. The purpose of a location map is to help people who don't already know, to understand out where it is. I have restored the map which I believe does this more effectively. Maproom (talk) 22:05, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- Catalonia is part of Spain and Europe, the map doesn't say it is not Lliure albir (talk) 22:36, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's absurd, Lliure albir. Green map is typical of EU countries, not of regions. It's too big to locate a single region on the continenT. The other regions of Spain used the same red map. I pray end war editions. Satesclop 22:46, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose Satesclop and I agree with Lliure albir, the map doesn't indicate Catalonia is not part of Spain since Spain is highlighted. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 23:08, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- Maproom, you're not being neutral, the map was added in July 2015 by certain user [1] and no one has opposed it, only Satesclop. Could you explain why the map you restored is better? IMO it is a worse map, because it doesn't show the position of Catalonia within Europe and the world, and because the current political situation of Catalonia and Spain is somewhat special — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 00:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
- I prefer the map I restored because I believe that most readers will find it more helpful in showing the position and extent of Catalonia. I am not concerned about the political status of Catalonia, this is a location map. I can see that it might be improved: "in Spain" could be deleted from the caption, the inset showing the Canaries would be better removed, and the colouring (white for Spain, ginger for France, Andorra and Portugal) could all be made white. I could do that myself if it would help. Maproom (talk) 08:37, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
- I prefer the green map (above), for me it's more helpful than the current one. I think most people are more familiar with the shape of Europe than with Spain. BlueBirdo (talk) 17:02, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
- So, can we restore the green map or not? meanwhile, I restore the original map from July, as a kind of consensus, because it shows Catalonia in Europe but, at the same time, without the European Union and with the borders of the other autonomous communities of Spain, showing clearly Catalonia as a part of Spain. Are you agree? --Jacobí (talk) 13:28, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
- I really dislike that green map, and all such maps with the inset in the top left overlying Greenland. The inset is intended to help the reader locate Europe, within a tiny world map that is itself made hard to understand by the way it abuts Greenland and other islands. I think that the number of readers who can understand the inset, and would not otherwise be able to locate Europe on a map of the world, must be 0. If the consensus is in favour of using that map, I can produce a modified version of it with the northern 30% trimmed off. Maproom (talk) 12:52, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- Most of us agreed to use the green map with Europe, so I think it's good Jacobí restored it. I would also request to use the same type of map for the Balearics and Valencia, as we have many visitors from Europe and all over the world. By doing this our visitors could contrast their original location with ours and would make them feel more welcome :) — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 13:04, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- I know I'm a bit late to this, but I'd also like to add my opinion and concur with the consensus. I've reverted the map several times now, and believe that the green map is most suitable, as it shows Catalunya's position not just in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Europe as a whole. I also concur that this follows precedent with other areas that are in Catalunya's current political situation, and I believe that this better represents the situation on the ground. I know that this may be distasteful for spanish nationalists, but it does best convey the information about the State. You know, I leave my flat in the morning and I see the Estelada everywhere, the only time I ever see the spanish flag is on official buildings, below the Senyera. I go to the cafe, and am greeted with "Bon Dia," not "Bueños." If someone says "Aquí en España...," the first response is, "Catalunya no es Espanya." This is the reality, so why pettifog it? (Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:23, 14 May 2016 (UTC))
- Easy: because things are what they are and not what we wish they would be. Catalonia is STILL part of Spain, and it should be reflected as such (within the Spanish map) in what pretends to be an encyclopedia. Facts; that easy. And it is a fact that Catalonia TODAY is part of Spain. Let's not rewrite history and geography on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not the place for that. I am sick of Spanish and Catalan nationalists fighting here... PS: I doubt anyone would say "Bueños" instead of "buenos".--Karljoos (talk) 00:07, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- I take issue with the map that presents Catalonia as if it were a part of the EU - it is not, and can't be, because it's not a proper country. It is a part of Spain, a country that already is a part of the EU. All other autonomous community's pages on WP have the yellow-red type of map, and there's no valid reason not to use it here. Reverted. WP is not a place for propaganda. Mr KEBAB (talk) 20:10, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- The current map doesn't show Catalonia is not in Spain or independent (yet). Moreover Catalonia is not the only territory in Spain and Europe with a green map (see the Basque Country and Scotland)... The fact that Catalonia is politically disconnecting from a stubborn country like Spain (see the latest news concerning this issue) shows the reality and not a dream like the previous user said. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 21:05, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- The point is that because of that map, it can be easily interpreted to be an "EU country" when, in fact, it's not even a country to begin with. Wishes of the people of Catalonia are irrelevant in this case, it's the current state of affairs that matters (which is Catalonia = Spain). The same applies to Basque Country. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:16, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- It's a "nation" within another nation, the same as Scotland (which also has a green map). Spain and Catalonia are not the same thing, although the latest is (still) a constituent part of the former. The same can't apply to the Basque Country because it has a separate consensus and it has different agreements with the Spanish state. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 21:43, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- We're not talking nations here. You misunderstood me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:57, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- And could we actually stop pretending that there's a consensus to use the zoomed-out map? There clearly isn't! Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:13, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
- The map is fine as is. It shows that Catalunya is currently a part of Spain. It also shows where the heck Catalunya is in Europe. This really seems like a non-issue. It's been agreed upon, if you disagree then you're free to go about the requisite process to change that. Until such a time I will report vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alcibiades979 (talk • contribs) 22:51, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
- It's a "nation" within another nation, the same as Scotland (which also has a green map). Spain and Catalonia are not the same thing, although the latest is (still) a constituent part of the former. The same can't apply to the Basque Country because it has a separate consensus and it has different agreements with the Spanish state. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 21:43, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- The point is that because of that map, it can be easily interpreted to be an "EU country" when, in fact, it's not even a country to begin with. Wishes of the people of Catalonia are irrelevant in this case, it's the current state of affairs that matters (which is Catalonia = Spain). The same applies to Basque Country. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:16, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- The current map doesn't show Catalonia is not in Spain or independent (yet). Moreover Catalonia is not the only territory in Spain and Europe with a green map (see the Basque Country and Scotland)... The fact that Catalonia is politically disconnecting from a stubborn country like Spain (see the latest news concerning this issue) shows the reality and not a dream like the previous user said. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 21:05, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- I know I'm a bit late to this, but I'd also like to add my opinion and concur with the consensus. I've reverted the map several times now, and believe that the green map is most suitable, as it shows Catalunya's position not just in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Europe as a whole. I also concur that this follows precedent with other areas that are in Catalunya's current political situation, and I believe that this better represents the situation on the ground. I know that this may be distasteful for spanish nationalists, but it does best convey the information about the State. You know, I leave my flat in the morning and I see the Estelada everywhere, the only time I ever see the spanish flag is on official buildings, below the Senyera. I go to the cafe, and am greeted with "Bon Dia," not "Bueños." If someone says "Aquí en España...," the first response is, "Catalunya no es Espanya." This is the reality, so why pettifog it? (Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:23, 14 May 2016 (UTC))
- Most of us agreed to use the green map with Europe, so I think it's good Jacobí restored it. I would also request to use the same type of map for the Balearics and Valencia, as we have many visitors from Europe and all over the world. By doing this our visitors could contrast their original location with ours and would make them feel more welcome :) — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 13:04, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- I really dislike that green map, and all such maps with the inset in the top left overlying Greenland. The inset is intended to help the reader locate Europe, within a tiny world map that is itself made hard to understand by the way it abuts Greenland and other islands. I think that the number of readers who can understand the inset, and would not otherwise be able to locate Europe on a map of the world, must be 0. If the consensus is in favour of using that map, I can produce a modified version of it with the northern 30% trimmed off. Maproom (talk) 12:52, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- So, can we restore the green map or not? meanwhile, I restore the original map from July, as a kind of consensus, because it shows Catalonia in Europe but, at the same time, without the European Union and with the borders of the other autonomous communities of Spain, showing clearly Catalonia as a part of Spain. Are you agree? --Jacobí (talk) 13:28, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
- I prefer the green map (above), for me it's more helpful than the current one. I think most people are more familiar with the shape of Europe than with Spain. BlueBirdo (talk) 17:02, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose Satesclop and I agree with Lliure albir, the map doesn't indicate Catalonia is not part of Spain since Spain is highlighted. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 23:08, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's absurd, Lliure albir. Green map is typical of EU countries, not of regions. It's too big to locate a single region on the continenT. The other regions of Spain used the same red map. I pray end war editions. Satesclop 22:46, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
@Alcibiades979: Wasting space on two maps is an issue. Can you tell me what's actually been 'agreed upon'? I see no real consensus in this discussion. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:49, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
@Alcibiades979: I'm still waiting for your response. Avoiding responding for almost 3 months and baseless threats to report me for alleged vandalism will get you nowhere. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:12, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Mr KEBAB I think these users are emotionally involved and pretend to make a fuzz about a special situation in Catalonia (like if it were a special snowflake or something like that... Catalunya, nou estat d'Europa). They tried to pull the same for the Valencian Community, if I can recall, though. From a political-geographic standpoint the territory is roughly the same than the rest of autonomous communities of Spain and of course a region of a sovereign state. Surely the first map offers a different alternative (arbitrary) scope, but so we can say the same about nearly every region of a sovereign state (you can count the exceptions to the country as primary focus with the fingers of a hand). Nonetheless, I think a multiple map option (one on screen, the rest collapsed) was habilitated in en:wiki. Dit it?--Asqueladd (talk) 10:35, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- You're wrong, it is a nationality of Spain (constituted as an "autonomous entity") that wants to be recognised as a nation and wants to decide its own future. The current Catalan government (lead by "Together for Yes") and a majority of the citizens of Catalonia support these views.
- @Asqueladd: Yeah, but people voting on Talk:Valencian Community were enough of critical thinkers not to let that happen.
- @JaumeR: The fact is that Catalonia is not an independent country. What the Catalans want and whether the Catalan government supports that is irrelevant to the fact that right now it's nothing more than a part of Spain, what should be reflected in the way its represented on the infobox map - the same as the rest of Spain.
- Critical thinkers? They were not honest and they did "canvassing"... Are you real?
- One of them did canvassing - a policy with which, by the way, I strongly disagree. It's (Redacted) probably to a high degree ineffective (people just do that covertly). Everyone should be allowed to invite other users to vote in whatever manner they choose.
- No, I meant a map like Community of Madrid has. Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- Again. Catalonia does not govern itself significantly different than the rest of autonomous communities. The entry may need to adress that with the map: be consistent in relation to a limited set of articles, the autonomous communities of Spain, whose main criteria in regards of this issue also happens to be consistent to a larger set of files (most of subdivisions of sovereign states). When the so called Procès leads Catalonia to de facto become Transnistria (de facto totally breaking up with the sovereign state) or Puerto Rico (reaching a consensus with the sovereign state to be a special snowflake) or when it gets recognition as independent state we may need to adress that issue of putting the thing on worldwide perspective (why precisely the EU if the EU is a club of sovereign states?) but it is not the case, so far. Maps do not get well with bruised feelings but with de facto changes of the control of the territory. Vilipendiated or not the the ominous grip of the Spanish State is still alive and well in the land of butifarra. Best regards.--Asqueladd (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
@@Mr KEBAB: First off, why haven't I replied? If you click on my name you'll see that I was on a sabbatical, not literally of course, just wasn't editing wiki. Next, why are there two maps? Because the first suggests a relationship between Catalunya, and Spain that is equivalent to that between Scotland, and the UK. The second suggests a relationship between Catalunya, and Spain that is equivalent to that between... well Castilla y León and Spain. This is already known. So there's no consensus between the two opposing factions as to which map best represents Catalunya's relationship with Spain, and as such, the two maps are the closest thing we can get to a compromise. I agree though, two maps do look stupid, you should be the bigger man, and agree to go with the first ^_^. (Alcibiades979 (talk) 13:24, 16 December 2016 (UTC))
- I agree that it is not necessary to have two maps in the same infobox that in the end show the same thing: the location of Catalonia in Spain and Europe in the first map and the location of Catalonia only in Spain in the second. As the author of the first map, I propose to make an extension in the first map of the area in which Catalonia is located to make it easier to locate it. I put, for example, the map of Flanders or Scotland. What do you think? --Martí8888 (talk) 11:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
@@Martí8888: Apoyo tu idea. Creo que puede ser un punto medio de entendimiento, aunque no entiendo por qué se intenta buscar conflicto en algo tan simple: Cataluña es una Comunidad Autónoma de España. El día que se independice, si es que llega ese momento algún día, ya se modificará el artículo, pero mientras tanto debemos respetar la soberanía de los países. Un saludo. --Cd tenerife (talk) 23:16, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- Would you please, talk, use English here? Thank you.--Karljoos (talk) 23:26, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- @@Martí8888: This is Alcibiades979, momentarily forgot my password, haha. I would be fine with this, the thing is it would require permission from those who are for the Spanish map, as well. It's kind of funny the Catalunya English wiki page is a weird sort of hybrid between the Catalan page, and the Castilian page, even down to the maps. 200.118.174.199 (talk) 16:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
- It would require making some sense, haha. Actually I don't see a reason other than the special snowflake syndrome and bruised feelings (unencyclopaedic purposes) to put that map.--Asqueladd (talk) 18:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
- Well if you don't understand, there's plenty of resources to learn such as: http://cat.elpais.com/cat/2017/01/22/catalunya/1485124749_040802.html sin embargo, sí Catalunya no es especial, porque ahora El Pais Vasco también quiere un referéndum, jajajajaja. Ara és l'hora 181.143.50.179 (talk) 00:48, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
- It would require making some sense, haha. Actually I don't see a reason other than the special snowflake syndrome and bruised feelings (unencyclopaedic purposes) to put that map.--Asqueladd (talk) 18:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
- @@Martí8888: This is Alcibiades979, momentarily forgot my password, haha. I would be fine with this, the thing is it would require permission from those who are for the Spanish map, as well. It's kind of funny the Catalunya English wiki page is a weird sort of hybrid between the Catalan page, and the Castilian page, even down to the maps. 200.118.174.199 (talk) 16:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
- Would you please, talk, use English here? Thank you.--Karljoos (talk) 23:26, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
@@Martí8888: I'm agree with you Martí, it's a good and useful idea. If you can make an Scottish style map, that means, Europe without the EU green, showing, like the current, the location of Catalonia in Europe and a square focusing Spain which included the borders of the other autonomous communities, it will be perfect. Better if you modify the current map instead of create another new. Thank you very much, greetings! --Jacobí (talk) 18:56, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
- The map for Catalonia should be the same map as the maps shown for any other administrative subdivision of Spain. I am very tired of Spaniard Catalonians and non-Catalonian Spaniards fighting their political wars on Wikipedia. I say we go with what Catalonia is legally within Spain, the European Union, and to the international institutions.Karljoos (talk) 16:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
- @@Karljoos: I do not see why Catalonia has to have the same map as that of other autonomous communities. The maps of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland also show each country in the UK and in Europe. Catalonia is a historical nationality, as it defends its autonomy status, and I really do not know why it could not have a map showing its territory in Spain and in Europe. I don't want it to appear that Catalonia is not currently part of Spain, the European Union or international institutions, and for this reason and according to the majority of users who have written on this discussion page, I will update the file showing Catalonia in Europe and Spain, with the borders of other autonomous communities and without the green of the European Union. --Martí8888 (talk) 17:01, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
- @@Martí8888: As far as I know the legal status of Catalonia within Spain is not as it is for Scotland in the UK. And I do not see a majority of people agreeing on it, Marti888. I think there are far too many people defending their political agendas here. Do not change it without having a proper consensus. Thank you.--Karljoos (talk) 16:00, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Marti8888's proposal Lliure albir (talk) 16:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
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etymology
Right now, the Etymology and pronunciation section, after a paragraph describing the early attestations of the term, we have a paragraph giving the Gothia Launia/Gothland and Goth-Alania theories. Then, there's a line that says "Other less plausible or recent theories suggest:" with a bullet points giving some more ideas.
This seems very awkward. How do we decide which theories belong before the "less plausible or recent theories" section and which go inside it? If some of the the latter are really not very plausible, perhaps they don't merit inclusion in the encyclopedia at all (it seems strange to list ideas with the proviso that they are less reliable without giving some indication of their significance as misconceptions). Maybe we should just have bullet points for all the proposed etymologies, roughly in order of when they are first attested as being put forward. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
Introduction too long
I would suggest reducing the length of the introduction part of the article. Its length is about double the average introductive part of other regions or countries.--88.13.59.194 (talk) 22:02, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
- I've just removed an unsourced paragraph from the WP:Lead that was added since the above comment was made, and I added a tag stating that the lead is too long. Basically, it is very wordy, and much of it covers details that should be left to other articles in Wikipedia. WP:BRD. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 18:01, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Update the political situation of the Catalonia page to match Kosovo?
Hi Wiki people,
With the regional government claiming independence while the central government refusing to recognise the vote, there seems to be a lot of similarities between the current situation to that of Kosovo. Irrespective of the opinion about the rights or wrongs/ legalities or illegalities, I believe the pages should be updated to reflect accordingly.
- Please educate yourself! Nobody has claimed anything! A referendum is far from independence. There aren't even one-sided declarations yet, so the article isn't supposed to reflect anything whatsoever. Stop with the talk about Kosovo! --92.75.107.147 (talk) 22:58, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
- Catalonia is declaring independence as the results have shown well over 90% support independence. This situation is distinct from Kosovo. 174.119.80.219 (talk) 02:07, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
- Let's wait until the independence is declared. --Saqib (talk) 10:34, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with that. But once it is, assuming it is - I think we should try to be balanced and treat Catalonia as other non or only partially unrecognised states in europe. Richardeast (talk) 15:34, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
- Richardeast, if you want to be "balanced" then you wait. It is not a "non or only partially unrecognised state" (you lost us there in the negations); it still is what it was a few days ago, the IP's pathetic "IT IS FREE" notwithstanding. Drmies (talk) 15:58, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with that. But once it is, assuming it is - I think we should try to be balanced and treat Catalonia as other non or only partially unrecognised states in europe. Richardeast (talk) 15:34, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
- Let's wait until the independence is declared. --Saqib (talk) 10:34, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
- The article states > "According to Catalan officials, around 2.26 million out of 5.34 million voters were able to vote" - but actually the Catalan officials' claim is that 3.03 million voted but of those only 2.63 ballot papers could be counted because 770,000 were seized by the Spanish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.3.128.75 (talk) 14:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
It appears that the Catalan Parliament will ratify the results tomorrow, so the UDI is not expected until Friday, at the earliest. Culloty82 (talk) 12:20, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
- When looking at how the situation is evolving, we should take action and prepare the "Republic of Catalonia" article, so fire up your sandboxes! Hazbulator™ 10:51, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
- We now have a definitive date for the UDI, with the Generalitat proclaiming the Republic of Catalonia on Monday. [1] Culloty82 (talk) 14:07, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Minor Edit Needed
OK, this article is not subject to editing, but the last sentence in the opening section contains this clause, " Catalonia has regained considerable local autonomy in political, educational, environmental, and cultural autonomy." The second word "autonomy" should be replaced with the word "affairs".2602:306:8BC7:1DD0:C9A7:6D80:2E39:4B29 (talk) 17:50, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
- Sounds right, will do. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:52, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2017
Change "Prominent Catalan polititians inSpain." to "Prominent Catalan polititians in Spain." 2.24.206.56 (talk) 18:47, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Since this is the English language wikipedia, please change polititians to politicians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1810:B414:7900:6022:3544:B224:DF8B (talk) 19:45, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Declare it a proto-state?
It is a major mistake, the product of radical nationalist misinformation, to place this article under protection while giving equal weight to a Naci coup d'état, and to the international rule of law as represented by the Spanish law. Shame on you, administrators. Please remedy this as soon as possible. The Estelada flag is not even the official flag of Catalonia. This is plain NAUSEOUS.
Considering today’s declaration of independence and subsequent several-week suspension in order to pursue negotiations, would it be accurate to declare Catalonia a proto-state? — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Kip (talk • contribs) 01:44, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
- If and only if mainstream consensus in reliable secondary sources use that wording. Otherwise it is a clear example of original research from our sides. Arnoutf (talk) 06:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Text under map unclear
– in Europe (green & dark grey)– in the European Union (green)– in Spain (dark & medium green)
European Union was dropped in [2] but with or without this text is unclear. comp.arch (talk) 15:04, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
CATALONIA IS NOT SPAIN
Catalonia is not spain! Catalonia is a new country who have the capital at BARCELONA!
Official flag
The official flag of Catalonia is the File:Flag_of_Catalonia.svg: . Can someone modify the infobox?--Ssola (talk) 15:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Totally true. Remove the other.--Kipsde (talk) 15:33, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Please, change the flag. The official is the above mentioned one!
Small typo in need of correction
In the Independence movement (2014–present) section of the article, the last sentence reads: "On October 27th as well, the Senate of Spain is voting on instituting direct rule, via Article 155 of the Spanish Consitution." 'Constitution' is misspelled.
Request: remove nonsense link
- Within a brief period France took full control of Catalonia, at a high economic cost for Catalonia, until it was largely [[conquistador|reconquered by the Spanish army]].
Remove the link to conquistador in the lede. This always refers to explorers of the New World / Americas / maybe the Philippines if you squint. It was just the normal Spanish army that defeated the segadors & French in that war. SnowFire (talk) 20:46, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Done Black Kite (talk) 22:46, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (18) - Making links to Catalan Republic (2017)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (17)
This article should use dmy dates. Change it in the lead paragraph 1, section Politics paragraph 8, and cite ref. 105. Hddty. (talk) 23:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Second this. I was going to do a sweep of all the dates. Happy to do this if/when us lesser drones can edit it. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:34, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Name in infobox correction
The name of the political entity that decalred secession is "Catalan Republic", not "Republic of Catalonia". Also aesthetically the words in parentheses in the infobox (especially "de facto" etc) shpuld be italicized. --Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 19:57, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 28 October 2017 (2)
In the lead, where the word "dispute" is there, please pipe a link to 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis. Darius robin (talk) 11:16, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (1a)
Please fix WP:REFSPACE at end of first paragraph of body. thanks! --Jeremyb (talk) 14:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Independent Catalonia
Catalonia has declared independence. I guess we need to keep updating the article ASAP.--94.234.170.148 (talk) 14:19, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2017
Under Demographics the following should be changed"
What currently reads as "The Urban Region of Barcelona includes 5,217,864 people and covers an area of 2,268 km2 (876 sq mi), and about 1.7 million people live in a radius of 15 km2 (5.8 sq mi) from Barcelona."
Should have the last half of the sentence removed to read as follows "The Urban Region of Barcelona includes 5,217,864 people and covers an area of 2,268 km2 (876 sq mi)."
1) There is no citation provided about 1.7 million people within 15 km22) Radius is not measured in square units, thus statement is false. If 1.7 million people live in 15 km2, that would be the densest city on Earth3) Statement is ambiguous. Do 1.7 Million people live within a radius of the center of Barcelona, or 1.7M people live within 15km of the edge of the urban region? 71.218.104.130 (talk) 21:51, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
- Done Nihlus 03:07, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (1)
"Under the Spanish constitution it an autonomous community with..." replace with "Under the Spanish constitution it is an autonomous community with..."
I noted that grammatical error and it should be fixed. 204.153.77.4 (talk) 14:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Done. I also made a minor copyedit from "On 27 October 2017, The Catalan parliament" to "On 27 October 2017, the Catalan parliament" which technically I'm not supposed to do without consensus on a full-protected article but seems innocuous enough. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (2)
Please delete paragraph 6 of the introduction "On 27 October 2017, Catalonia's parliament simultaneously voted for, and declared, independence from Spain." It's just a repeat of the end of paragraph 1, including the same source. At the same time, remove the space between the full stop and the reference at the end of paragraph 1. Maswimelleu (talk) 15:01, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed, that is definitely superfluous and unnecessary. Paine Ellsworth put'r there 15:43, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Paragraph removed. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (8)
In the second sentence, a "the" is missing before "Kingdom of Spain".
"Its constitutional status is the subject of a dispute between Kingdom of Spain which views . . ."Jdperkins (talk) 16:25, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Insulting flag
Please, change the flag. The estelada it's only a claiming flag. Goldorak (talk) 18:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done Consensus needed for changes of this nature. Discuss, get consensus, and request again.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Done - enough consensus and evidence on this page to support the request. Mjroots (talk) 19:26, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (15)
Change map and text below map to that used in this old edit. Reason: the current infobox says "Map of Catalonia in Spain" which is a violation of WP:NPOV.
Additionally, the top of the infobox says:
Catalonia
Catalunya (Catalan)
Catalonha (Occitan)
Cataluña (Spanish)
Settlement
The "Settlement" should be removed, because Catalonia is not a settlement.
Chessrat (talk, contributions) 18:25, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done Consensus needed for changes of this nature. Discuss, get consensus, and request again. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:29, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support - The word "settlement" clearly appears out of place as the user has said it is not a single settlement such as a town or village but a larger region / territory / area etc. The word "settlement" is clearly misleading as to the nature of Catalonia and should be omitted from the info-box. Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 18:48, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support removing settlement - {{Geobox}} supports regions as well as settlements, which would seem to be more reasonable for this article. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Can we just delete "settlement" and leave it blank? Vanjagenije (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- *tests*... looks like. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Get rid of the term "settlement" and just leave that bit blank. Using "region" is charged as well so I think it should just be omitted. Settlement is definitely wrong. Maswimelleu (talk) 19:21, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Completely agree with Maswimelleu above; settlement is plain wrong, region would seem like siding with Spain on the independence question so isn't an NPOV. Leave it blank. - Cheers, Burwellian (Talk) 19:34, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Can we just delete "settlement" and leave it blank? Vanjagenije (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- I think there's consensus showing here to comment out (or remove outright) "settlement", so I've reactivated the request. Since I've given my opinion, someone else should make the edit. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:30, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Done. I have not changed the map, but feel free to gain consensus for a change and make another request. -- zzuuzz (talk) 17:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Esto da vergüenza
Cataluña es un país, todo el Govern catalán está constituido. Cataluña es aís y no una región como proclamáis aquí, aliados de los unionistas. --83.49.146.228 (talk) 12:18, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- Answer:
According to [3], a país is a Región geográficamente delimitada, de poca o mucha extensión. So I do not understand the difference you wanna make between a país and a Región. Brexit is brexit and law is law. | Segun [4], un país es una Región geográficamente delimitada, de poca o mucha extensión. Por eso, no entiendo la diferencia que intenta ud exprimir entre país y Región. Brexit es brexit y ley is ley. |
Protected edit request on 28 October 2017 (3)
Change
{{Geobox2 line plain|{{flagicon image|Flag of Catalonia.svg}} Catalan Republic ''(unrecognized)''}}
to
{{Geobox2 line plain|{{flagicon image|Flag of Catalonia.svg}} [[Catalan Republic (2017)|Catalan Republic]] ''(unrecognized)''}}
Protected edit request on 28 October 2017
Add Spanish as official language of the Catalan Republic in the infobox. Juridical Transition law says that the official languages remain the same. 79.148.241.20 (talk) 20:09, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- Please, provide a reliable WP:source of information. Vanjagenije (talk) 20:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: - See explanation posted at section 17 of this talk page headed "Flag". Mjroots (talk) 20:32, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, yes, article 24 says that official languages are "catalana, aranesa i castellana". So, Done. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:25, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: - See explanation posted at section 17 of this talk page headed "Flag". Mjroots (talk) 20:32, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Language edit request
Please change "between both geographical areas Catalonia and Languedoc" to "between the geographical areas of Catalonia and Languedoc". Thanks, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 10:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
- Done. Vanjagenije (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 29 October 2017
In the second line of the introduction, please add a link to the Catalan Republic (2017) article in "(..)which views it as an independent republic following (..)". Thank you. Amr 21:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Link to "direct rule"
Direct rule has become a disambiguation page (and was formerly about Northern Ireland). Please replace the wikilink to that page by a link to direct rule over Catalonia. Certes (talk) 16:22, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
- Done. Vanjagenije (talk) 16:37, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Flag (again)
I'm seeing more than enough consensus to use file:Flag of Catalonia.svg, so I've restored it to the infobox. Mjroots (talk) 18:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Well done. This is the only accepted catalan flag (by all parties). Previous flag (including white star on blue triangle) is a symbol used by independence supporters, but is never meant to replace the actual flag. 83.38.236.59 (talk) 19:47, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Flags/Infobox
The Estelada is not considered to represent Catalonia, but rather the secessionist movement in that territory, a 'fight symbol'. The flag of Catalonia is always considered to be the Senyera (secessionists and non-secessionists), and it's the official flag.
Consider using |image_flag
in the Geobox/settlement template (wich is deprecated: {{Infobox settlement}}
should be used instead[2].)
Example:
Catalonia/Archive 6 | |
---|---|
--MrPotato1010 (talk) 15:55, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Article 155 has been enacted
^ JOSHBLY (talk) 14:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- ...and its results say that... Georgia guy (talk) 14:59, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 31 October 2017
Central European Summer Time has finished for the year so "timezone = CEST | utc_offset =+2" should be changed to "timezone = CET | utc_offset =+1". Thanks, Iggy (talk) 16:12, 31 October 2017 (UTC) Iggy (talk) 16:12, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
- Correct. Done Vanjagenije (talk) 23:12, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Infobox
I request to improve the infobox and use the same type than Quebec or Scotland. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 01:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
- This autonomous community is not Scotland or Quebec, is one more region of Spain. The rest of communities have the same type of map. Please, you stop the vandalism. Satesclop 04:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with Jaume. Lliure albir (talk) 16:58, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- Agree with Jaume. By the way, Jaume, I used your Metro stop the other day, Jaume I. I sure am glad though that there are a legion of Americans who are willing to share with us what the political situation is like in our home country. Where would the world be without Americans dictating terms, and instructing us uncivilized folk. 79.158.167.31 (talk) 19:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
I think the Statute of Autonomy date should be Agoust 2010, because then it was published in its final version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.96.151.103 (talk) 09:29, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- Agree with Jaume. Satesclop seems to infer that Catalonia is less of a state than Quebec, yet before the referendum, it was one of the three Spanish "historical nations" (The Basque Country, Galicia and Catalonia) which have a different status to the other regions of Spain, so Satesclop is wrong in his/her assertion that it is "one more region of Spain" like, let's say, Andalusia or Castille. Add to this that Catalonia has also undertaken a referendum in which 90% of voters voted "yes" (whereas they voted "no" in Scotland and Quebec), and surely this makes Catalonia even more of a state than Quebec, certainly not less. Also, Satesclop, you seem to be rude. Please let's be amicable about this.
- Viliro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.186.200.46 (talk) 06:03, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (6)
Please immediately remove the mention of Catalonia as a independent republic. This is not true and has not been accepted by any country in the world. BoBoLoG (talk) 16:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done Discuss, get consensus, then submit the request. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (7)
79.157.133.162 (talk) 16:22, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Catalonia is a country
- Not done no request. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:45, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Edit request
The first word of the second sentence of the first paragraph should be "notwithstanding".—azuki (talk · contribs · email) 01:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (11)
In the last introductory paragraph, before the line that states that the Parliament of Catalonia declared independence on October 27, 2017, that "On October 1, 2017, a referendum was held in Catalonia in which a very large majority of Catalonian's voted for independence despite efforts by the Spanish government to suppress the vote." Lottamiata (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done Get consensus for the wording first, then submit it. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:55, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (18) - Remove vandalism
I wanted to edit the page but I see it's fully protected, not only semi-protected.
I suggest to undone those 2 vandalism edits which just made a mess up and endirtened the page. https:https://www.search.com.vn/wiki/index.php?lang=en&q=Catalonia&diff=807369754&oldid=807369526https:https://www.search.com.vn/wiki/index.php?lang=en&q=Catalonia&diff=807369877&oldid=807369754
Both editions deleted lots of the infobox with no reason or sense. The 1st user is even blocked now for this vandalizing, although his changes were not undone. Neither this 2nd edition from above, another one which just deleted lots of information without sense. --TechnicianGB (talk) 00:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done. That is certainly not vandalism. See the deffinition of vandalism here: WP:VANDALISM. Vanjagenije (talk) 14:20, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Independence announcement now almost certain
Editors here should prepare for a Catalonia country article as the Spanish prime minister just announced that he is revoking the regions autonomy. This action will strip the president of his powers and with it a call for new elections.[5] - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:40, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
My proposal is that we handle this one like Crimea for neutrality: Autonomous Republic of Crimea vs Republic of Crimea. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:43, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- My proposal is just to wait until seeing what happens instead of pre-arranging what should be done. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea was the name of the region as an autonomous republic within Ukraine, whereas Republic of Crimea is the name of the subject under Russian control. Nothing similar to that would happen here, and first of all, we should first address the actual relevance of any eventual independence before going on to create an entirely separate article. As of now, any data covering any self-proclaimed independent Catalonia could very well be worked into both this and the Catalan Republic article. Impru20 (talk) 17:03, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- The worst thing that could happen if an article is prepare in draft-space is that it isn't needed then deleted. I agree with you about waiting to see what happens but being prepared isn't a bad thing to do here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:07, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- The Spanish government is preparing the military - there won't be any "independence" - there might very well be a massacre of large numbers of the extremist population, however. Friends of mine in Spain say the mood in the rest of the country is pretty ugly against the independence movement - and when an army is in an ugly mood, watch out. I suspect we'll be editing this article soon with a most unpleasant set of Reliable Source'd news items. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.59.83 (talk) 12:28, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
- Acting upon almost certainty is still crystal balling. It was also almost certain Clinton would win the 2016 elections. Let's just wait. Arnoutf (talk) 17:20, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Which is why we have Userspace draft. I am trying not to have this article become a mess. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:24, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Acting upon almost certainty is still crystal balling. It was also almost certain Clinton would win the 2016 elections. Let's just wait. Arnoutf (talk) 17:20, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Infobox change
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Proposed infobox | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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|
Catalonia may declare independence next Monday so i created a proposed infobox above. This is preliminary. Wrestlingring (talk) 02:06, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- OH YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!!! Thank you very much! Your Infobox looks so beautiful and true. LONG LIVE República de Catalunya!!! 2001:8003:8665:7D00:B0D9:F1D:4BF8:DF04 (talk) 08:11, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
You can't just take Infobox settlement and put Infobox country on top of it, they don't contain the same fields. Click 'edit' above and then click the Preview button, all of those errors need fixing before this template will work properly. - X201 (talk) 08:05, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
In terms of NPOV, perhaps the Donetsk People's Republic infobox [6] is the best template? Culloty82 (talk) 12:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Donetsk also uses country infobox so why do you think the proposed infobox for post-independence Catalonia is not neutral? If you meant the Donetsk infobox contains less fields, I think it is due to non-availability of data. --Saqib (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Oppose doing this immediately after any declaration; we should wait at least 48-72 hours to see what reaction occurs. Catalan Republic may be a suitable page to include this infobox now. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- NO. I can't wait any longer. Today is the longest day in my life, tomorrow I will be reborn. 2001:8003:8665:7D00:B0D9:F1D:4BF8:DF04 (talk) 08:15, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. Although they make the declaration, it will be unilateral and unrecognized. The opinions of the ip 2001:8003:8665:7D00:B0D9:F1D:4BF8:DF04|2001:8003:8665:7D00:B0D9:F1D:4BF8:DF04 should not be taken into account, due to a clear WP:COI as shown for their words. --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 11:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Support infobox suggestion from Wrestlingring. In response to issues raised by BallenaBlanca, I agree that it will be unilateral, and it may be unrecognised, but the original poster labelled its status as disputed, so my thoughts are that listing it as disputed would cover your concern. StLis 220.245.138.58 (talk) 06:09, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Per WP:CBALL. There is not even a declaration yet. Currently it is a region of Spain and would continue to be after an eventual declaration that the courts have confirmed would be illegal and without effect. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 22:21, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Today's implemented, but promptly suspended, declaration will hardly clarify the debate! Culloty82 (talk) 20:24, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose as per Power~enwiki, BallenaBlanca and Crystallizedcarbon. Impru20 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. Catalonia's president hasn't clarified on whether or not Catalonia has declared independence and tomorrow is when the deadline is over. Mr.McCloud 15:06, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Enterprise599: It is now almost a given as the PM is going to strip Catalonia of its autonomy. I don't think the pro independence Catalonians are just going to shrug their shoulders and say "oh well... its back to Spain we go". - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:48, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Ha. Genetically - good grief. They are the same as the rest of the Spanish population, except for the Basques - who truly are different from the rest of the country. This is just Catalan nationalism run amok. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.59.83 (talk) 12:31, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
unreferenced mess
What the heck happened here? "Christianity, attested in the 3rd century, was completed in urban areas in the 4th century. Although it remains under Roman rule and does not go under the rule of Vandals, Swabians and Alans in the 5th century, the main cities suffered frequent sacking and some desurbanization." - not only does this not make sense in English, but it needs a source. Badly. 50.111.59.83 (talk) 07:17, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
NNPOV Issue on post-2014 section
As currently written, the post-2014 section of this article takes the "line" of the Spanish government, rather than reflecting a neutral point of view as to whether Catalonia should be independent of not. Kenneth Burch
- Can you clarify what this "line" is? - 02:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (3)
Having "Republic of Catalonia (unrecognized)" in the infobox is reactionary and misleading. Spain may take direct control of the government today or shortly. Very fluid situation. Remove these 4 words and flag. Legacypac (talk) 15:09, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Well, a news source I just read says that Catalonia's declaration of independence is considered to be "in effect a symbolic gesture as it will not be accepted by Spain or the international community".[1] I think using "Republic of Catalonia (unrecognized)" is SOP for Wikipedia, isn't it? At least until the diapers are removed from this infant republic. Paine Ellsworth put'r there 15:25, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Legacypac Some would consider that an invasion of an independent country considering this result was reached democratically. Wikipedia not a print encyclopedia. Mainline421 (talk) 15:27, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Not done If you want to make non-trivial edit, establish the consensus first, then make a request. Vanjagenije (talk) 17:29, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (4)
Add these categories so as not to show any bias during this dispute.
[[Category:Southwestern European countries]][[Category:Spanish-speaking countries and territories]][[Category:Countries in Europe]][[Category:Liberal democracies]] Mainline421 (talk) 15:11, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Bad idea. Let's see how this shakes out first. Legacypac (talk) 15:13, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done This is disputed. Please seek consensus for this change. -- zzuuzz (talk) 15:17, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Legacypac @Zzuuzz Not doing so shows bias towards the Spanish government's side of the current dispute though. Catalonia is currently considered an independent country by the Catalonian government and most of its citizens if the result of the referendum is anything to go by. Mainline421 (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- They don't become a country until some other country recognizes them. Just declaring is not enough. Legacypac (talk) 15:22, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Legacypac That's not for us as editors to decide what constitutes a country, we must cover all notable points of view. Mainline421 (talk) 15:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- We are not deciding "what constitutes a country", we are following the reliable sources. And please don't reopen this request until a consensus has been garnered. The categories suggested are premature. Paine Ellsworth put'r there 15:29, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Legacypac That's not for us as editors to decide what constitutes a country, we must cover all notable points of view. Mainline421 (talk) 15:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- They don't become a country until some other country recognizes them. Just declaring is not enough. Legacypac (talk) 15:22, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Legacypac @Zzuuzz Not doing so shows bias towards the Spanish government's side of the current dispute though. Catalonia is currently considered an independent country by the Catalonian government and most of its citizens if the result of the referendum is anything to go by. Mainline421 (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- There are several theories of statehood - they might meet start to meet the declarative theory one of these days if they can establish military and police control over their defined teritory but it’s going to be very interesting if any country actually recognizes a new state. Recognition of a new state here will embolden separatist movements in other countries amd not just in Europe like Scotland, but Kurds, areas of Russia and China, Quebec, and other places. I was told today about a politician from Sabah that is working in Catalonia on independence because she sees it as precedent for her state separating. Unless there is a civil war that leads to separation, or an agreement with the Spanish government, we need other states to recognize a new country before we start calling it a country. Legacypac (talk) 21:47, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (9)
Explain that the declaration of independence is legitimized with the catalan referendum of independence held on October 1. Rollerman (talk) 16:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (10)
To change the word "feudatory", which is not grammatical, to "feudal" in the introductory paragraph to this article. Lottamiata (talk) 16:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
According to Google, owing feudal allegiance to."they had for a long period been feudatory to the Norwegian Crown" --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:48, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Very interesting, SarekOfVulcan. The word "feudatory" was actually new to me. That citation of yours appears in the OED as well (adjective used predicatively), but it cites attribute usage too: "The armies kept up by the feudatory states". Moreover, it is a noun as well--"One who holds his lands by feudal tenure; a feudal vassal". I'd argue that "feudatory vassal", while not ungrammatical, is somewhat redundant (a vassal always being in a feudal relationship to a lord or monarch or whatever), but it is no more redundant than "feudal vassal". If you want to revert my change, by all means. Thanks! Drmies (talk) 16:57, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- I don't see any need to revert, if you're happy with the wording as it stands. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:59, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (12)
When I re-wrote the opening sentence, I described Catalonia as a "region" to avoid taking sides in the status dispute. I then explained the rival claims to the area between Spain and the unilaterally declared Catalan Republic. I believe that the word "region" may be viewed by many as not being neutral by some people as it might imply "autonomous region" and therefore propose that the word "region" be changed to "disputed area" or "disputed territory".Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 17:47, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done Seems like a reasonable change, but it will need consensus before making an edit request. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Also sounds reasonable to use area or territory. You may be able to take out the word "disputed" too; the geographical space occupied by Catalonia itself (either an independent country or an autonomous region of Spain) is not disputed, only its political status (at least as far as I have read and seen). MarkJerue (talk) 18:13, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (13)
Change "Republic of Catalonia" in the infobox to "Catalan Republic" Cipika (talk) 18:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done No source given for name. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Umm, the text of the declaration of independence clearly mentions "República catalana", which in English is translated as "Catalan Republic". The "Republic of Catalonia" would be "República de Catalunya" in Catalan. (https://www.ara.cat/2017/10/10/Declaracio_Independencia_amb_logo_-1.pdf). Secondly, there's already a Wikipedia page presenting the political entity which uses that version. Cipika (talk) 19:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- I'm still hesitant to make that change, until we have a reasonably reliable source (UN? US State Department?) giving the translation.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:32, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Umm, the text of the declaration of independence clearly mentions "República catalana", which in English is translated as "Catalan Republic". The "Republic of Catalonia" would be "República de Catalunya" in Catalan. (https://www.ara.cat/2017/10/10/Declaracio_Independencia_amb_logo_-1.pdf). Secondly, there's already a Wikipedia page presenting the political entity which uses that version. Cipika (talk) 19:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (14)
PanthWiki (talk) 18:17, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Hotlinking "independent republic" in the first paragraph to Republic of Catalonia
- Not done Consensus needed for changes of this nature. Discuss, get consensus, and request again.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 27 October 2017 (16)
Amend description under map in info box to something along the lines of "Location of Catalonia relative to Spain", so as to take a more neutral point of view given independence dispute. Cheers, Burwellian (Talk) 19:25, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done Until they're recognized as an independent country, that's not appropriate. We can't move ahead of the reliable sources. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:27, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Compromise - label it "location of Catalonia" with Spain in one colour, Catalonia in another, and the rest of Europe in a grey tone. Emphasise that Catalonia is a disputed territory. Could say "location of Catalonia in Europe" but imo since the map wouldn't show all of Europe that would be inappropriate, unless the scope of the map in increased. Map needs to show both that Catalonia has some measure of relationship to Spain but doesn't need to present it on a map with all the other Spanish regions to sustain neutral point of view. Maswimelleu (talk) 19:43, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Kinda what I'm getting at, yeah. Should prob not be "in" Spain as it sides against Catalans, but can't exclude Spain as that'd side against Spanish POV. Need a way of stating that both are being shown but that status of Catalonia relative to Spain is disputed. - Cheers, Burwellian (Talk) 20:04, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- I suppose we could go with "Location of Catalonia", and let the map speak for itself... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- Kinda what I'm getting at, yeah. Should prob not be "in" Spain as it sides against Catalans, but can't exclude Spain as that'd side against Spanish POV. Need a way of stating that both are being shown but that status of Catalonia relative to Spain is disputed. - Cheers, Burwellian (Talk) 20:04, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 28 October 2017 (1)
Please, can you talk with the admin of the Catalan page of "Catalonia" to inmediately change the terms "Pais" for "Comunidad Autonoma" or another more neutral term?.It's not good to write this type of terms because now this term of WIKIPEDIA is in dispute and for WIKIPEDIA is a bad example of no neutrality. Now we can see this in this page:"Aquest article és sobre L'ESTAT. Pel territori històric i polític vegeu Principat de Catalunya, i per altres definicions Catalunya (desambiguació)." Chisco2 (talk) 10:23, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Protected edit request
An important fact is being ignored in the article: the Spanish Government on Friday dismissed Catalonia's president Carles Puigdemont and his cabinet (source: CNN [1])
It means Carles Puigdemont is no longer the official Catalonia's president, as it's being wrongly stated in the article's infobox. BBC News is already referring to him as "Catalan ex-leader". [2]. Also in Reuters, "ousted Catalan leader": [3]
So could you administrators please update the article accordingly? The infobox should be updated, and information about the dismissal of the president and cabinet should be cited in the end of the "Independence movement (2014–present)" section.Mad Tarjan (talk) 20:39, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- He's listed as president of the Catalan Republic, which many currently consider to be an independent country separate from Spain. The status of Catalonia is currently under dispute, and personally I'm surprised at the angle the BBC is currently taking. It's clear you consider the Catalan Republic not to exist, but it is backed up by reliable sources. If you want to dispute this any further it's probably best to bring this up on Talk:Catalan_Republic_(2017). Mainline421 (talk) 21:03, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
My opinions or points of view are completely irrelevant in this matter, and I haven't even expressed them, so please don't come to conclusions about what I consider or not. Wikipedia is neither a primary source nor a place for unbacked "many currently consider" affirmations, that's why I'm backing my affirmation with NPOV relevant sources: BBC, CNN, Reuters. Carles Puigdemont was sacked by the Spanish Government as the president of the Generalitat, it is a fact, as it is clearly stated in CNN's article and many other relevant and unbiased news sources like The Guardian [4], France24 [5] and Deutsche Welle [6]. This fact is also stated in the Wikipedia article President of the Generalitat of Catalonia. So, the Catalonia article clearly needs to present this information.Mad Tarjan (talk) 21:30, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done. Please, reach consensus for this proposed edit before making an edit request. WP:RfC could be useful here. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:33, 28 October 2017 (UTC)