Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 125
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"until 1987"
None of the sources in the political career section or article state that Trump had been a Democrat from birth to 1987, just that he officially registered as a Republican in 1987. The politifact source doesn't list any political affiliation before 1987. --Steverci (talk) 20:11, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Steverci. I've removed it, couldn't find a single source that mentioned any party affiliation before 1987. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 07:19, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Regarding deletions of medical journal addition
It goes without saying that Melanie is one of our most knowledgeable editors and as always I value her judgement. But I would like to discuss the delete of my Covig-19 pandemic section addition. By profession and my WP editing I am part of the medical profession, so I do possibly hold a bias on the importance of what the medical profession has to say about this presidency as we watch the deaths and other social consequences of this pandemic rise far above that of most other developed countries. IMO, since we have a section titled COVID-19 pandemic, should we not note what the medical community has to say about Trump's position? When the New England Journal of Medicine, widely believed to be the most prestigious medical journal in the world, speaks out for the first time in their over 200 years of existence, and the article has the signatures of every one of their editors, as happened only three times in their history, should not that be included in a section that has taken so many American lives, including according to their estimate, thousands more than it should have taken if he would have responded appropriately? Gandydancer (talk) 21:45, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Just so I am sure I am following correctly, this has to do with this revert right? PackMecEng (talk) 21:52, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Let's not lose sight of the fact that this article is a biography of Trump, not an exploration of every political issue connected to Trump. Repeatedly, we feel the need to create a section about issue X because it happened under Trump's watch, and then the issue takes on a life of its own. We simply do not have the space for that kind of approach, and we need less detail about presidency-related content in this article. This should be taken to other articles for consideration, as MelanieN suggested. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:26, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Seems like a good fit for Presidency of Donald Trump. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:38, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- It doesn't deserve its own section but should be included in the main COVID-19 section. Also, the COVID-19 section is too long. It should begin by saying that Trump's response was widely criticized, then summarize in one or two paragraphs what happened. TFD (talk) 23:08, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, it does seem too long and when I entered this here I felt it certainly was as important as all that other stuff. I think that Scjessey may be right to include it at the Trump presidency article (and shorten this section?). Gandydancer (talk) 23:13, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
I felt it certainly was as important as all that other stuff.
Exactly. See slippery slope. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:28, 8 October 2020 (UTC)- If this were a routine political endorsement, I would agree it does not belong in the bio article. But this and some of the other recent comments on his fitness for office are reflections on him personally and can be briefly mentioned in this article. SPECIFICO talk 23:49, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think that it's worth considering that thought. The Scientific American, again a first in their almost 200 years of publishing, also put out an editorial condemning Trump and urging a vote for Biden.[1] They are, it seems, making political statements because they realize that there may still be time to turn around the damage done by Trump's anti-science policies but four more years and it may be too late. I returned to the Trump presidential article where I first did not put it because I didn't see where it would fit, but I still could not find a place to put it. I did tuck it somewhere but that article gets only around 300 hits a day and to me that seems almost a disgraceful thing to do considering the gravity of their decision to make political statements. Gandydancer (talk) 01:21, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Right, that confirms my past claims that material is put in this article because of its high visibility, not because it would belong here otherwise. That's a misuse of the encyclopedia in my view. If this article were being used appropriately, readers would soon enough learn to follow
{{Main}}
and{{Further}}
hatnote links – as they are intended to be used – and your 300 hits would be higher. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:15, 9 October 2020 (UTC)- Exactly. This article must reflect what is biographically significant to Donald Trump, rather than what might be important to the world he inhabits. Obviously there's going to be some overlap, but I would argue this article has many things that shouldn't really be here. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Right, that confirms my past claims that material is put in this article because of its high visibility, not because it would belong here otherwise. That's a misuse of the encyclopedia in my view. If this article were being used appropriately, readers would soon enough learn to follow
reflections on him personally
- I'd be more receptive to that argument if the people making it were interested in removing some of the content that does not meet that definition. Like most of the Foreign policy section, for starters. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:52, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think that it's worth considering that thought. The Scientific American, again a first in their almost 200 years of publishing, also put out an editorial condemning Trump and urging a vote for Biden.[1] They are, it seems, making political statements because they realize that there may still be time to turn around the damage done by Trump's anti-science policies but four more years and it may be too late. I returned to the Trump presidential article where I first did not put it because I didn't see where it would fit, but I still could not find a place to put it. I did tuck it somewhere but that article gets only around 300 hits a day and to me that seems almost a disgraceful thing to do considering the gravity of their decision to make political statements. Gandydancer (talk) 01:21, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, it does seem too long and when I entered this here I felt it certainly was as important as all that other stuff. I think that Scjessey may be right to include it at the Trump presidency article (and shorten this section?). Gandydancer (talk) 23:13, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Mandruss but it is true of many of our articles, not just this one. Everyone is this discussion is pretty well-seasoned to the ways of this place and is well aware of the reasons this tends to happen, which I won't get into right now. But back to the coronavirus problem... Again, I'm going to harp away at this: When our two most prestigious medical/science journals place the blame squarely on Trump for a large part of this hellish situation we find ourselves in, we need to highlight it in our encyclopedia as well, IMO. I fully agree that this article is not the place to get deeply into the virus information and that the section should be cut to only a short mention with a see also note. I'd like to see short mention of the two journals but am aware that others may not agree to that. I'd also like to see the (poorly named) Communication section from the U.S. federal government response to the COVID-19 pandemic article split out to its own article as I believe that it contains most of the stuff we've got here. Gandydancer (talk) 17:17, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- I not sure that this belongs here. Unsurprisingly, the NYTimes appears to say this Journal is laying ALL the blame on the Trump Administration, and while obstensively they may very well be doing so, the actual editorial published by the NE Journal of Medicine lays the blame at least partly in the hands of some Governors.[2] Also, oddly, I see nothing in the Journal paper examining the fact that while the US was slow in testing and is still slow in providing test results, the US has tested over a third of the population, a stat few other countries can claim and that of course will equate with MORE positives in all liklihood. I also see no examination that the death rate in the US is no worse than in the UK, France, Italy, Belgium and Spain, all first world nations with comparable medical capabilities to the US. Also dispute their reliance on Chinese figures as this has been disputed by many.[3]--MONGO (talk) 19:40, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree that after reading the actual NEJM article, it is blaming leaders in general at the federal and state levels, not even mentioning the President a single time. Frankly, although we list The New York Times as a reliable source in https://www.search.com.vn/wiki/en/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources, this an example of The New York Times not being a reliable source. The title of The New York Times article "In a First, New England Journal of Medicine Joins Never-Trumpers" is completely misleading. I think the right place to mention this would be in https://www.search.com.vn/wiki/en/The_New_England_Journal_of_Medicine or if it can be folded into an existing sentence in the Presidency of Donald Trump article that might also make sense. The Scientific American article endorsing Biden is another story, and I think that deserves to be mentioned in a new sentence here or the Presidency of Donald Trump article. Efcharisto (talk) 02:50, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- @ MONGO I don't agree with any of your assessments but this is not the place to get into an argument about the NYT or the NEJM. Gandydancer (talk) 03:08, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- @MONGO: - this line in the full editorial makes it clear that the main culprit is the federal government, not the governors:
But whatever their competence, governors do not have the tools that Washington controls. Instead of using those tools, the federal government has undermined them.
starship.paint (talk) 09:03, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree that after reading the actual NEJM article, it is blaming leaders in general at the federal and state levels, not even mentioning the President a single time. Frankly, although we list The New York Times as a reliable source in https://www.search.com.vn/wiki/en/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources, this an example of The New York Times not being a reliable source. The title of The New York Times article "In a First, New England Journal of Medicine Joins Never-Trumpers" is completely misleading. I think the right place to mention this would be in https://www.search.com.vn/wiki/en/The_New_England_Journal_of_Medicine or if it can be folded into an existing sentence in the Presidency of Donald Trump article that might also make sense. The Scientific American article endorsing Biden is another story, and I think that deserves to be mentioned in a new sentence here or the Presidency of Donald Trump article. Efcharisto (talk) 02:50, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- With apologies to those on this topic, I note that I recently added the endorsements of the NEJM and Scientific American to the "False Statements" section. I did not realize/did not note that the issue was under discussion here; my failing. I thought the endorsements by these reputable institutions provided support for the substantial disinformation and supported the final paragraph of the section regarding the weakening of liberal democracy. I let the community decide what to do about these recent edits; perhaps they were out of line. Bdushaw (talk) 18:56, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- This isn't a particularly notable endorsement so it doesn't belong in this article at all. This barely rates as a news article, when there are thousands and thousands of news articles written about Donald Trump. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:11, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2020
[1]Please change "In April 2020, USAID extended the PREDICT program for six months.[704][705]" (COVID-19 pandemic > Pandemic response program terminated) to "The program was then extended twice for six months; Pooja Jhunjhunwala, a USAID spokeswoman said — first to finish some analyses, then to help other countries fight Covid-19.".Gg100699 (talk) 20:59, 17 October 2020 (UTC) Gg100699 (talk) 20:59, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Amy Coney Barrett Appointment
In the lead, Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh are listed as Trump's appointments to the Supreme Court. Shouldn't we add ACB to the list now as well? NationalInterest16 (talk) 15:11, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- She hasn't been confirmed, as of the present, so, not yet. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- When she is, I think we should just say "three" and not name them in the lead. SPECIFICO talk 15:18, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Would there be any reason to just say "three" rather than naming all three? For example, President Obama's three nominations are named. I can't see length being an issue given that this lead isn't unusually long. Wouldn't anyone who is reading the article be interested to know who the justices are? NationalInterest16 (talk) 16:29, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Not in a biography lead, I think. In other articles, yes. SPECIFICO talk 17:06, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not against including all three names in the lead, depending on space. Merrick Garland's nomination is a special case. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- There's no reason to name the justices in the lead. The names are not biographically significant. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:19, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- +1. Actually, I'd phrase that as "the names are not necessarily lead-worthy." ―Mandruss ☎ 21:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Although the method of selection, from the Federalist Society farm system of meticulously groomed judges, might be the significant fact about his approach to the many many lifetime appointments he has made. SPECIFICO talk 22:02, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- There's no reason to name the justices in the lead. The names are not biographically significant. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:19, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not against including all three names in the lead, depending on space. Merrick Garland's nomination is a special case. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Not in a biography lead, I think. In other articles, yes. SPECIFICO talk 17:06, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Would there be any reason to just say "three" rather than naming all three? For example, President Obama's three nominations are named. I can't see length being an issue given that this lead isn't unusually long. Wouldn't anyone who is reading the article be interested to know who the justices are? NationalInterest16 (talk) 16:29, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- When she is, I think we should just say "three" and not name them in the lead. SPECIFICO talk 15:18, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Republican-controlled Senate trial
Re: [4]
I am not BRD-reverting because of potential 1RR vio.
The first five words of the nutshell at WP:NPOV: "Articles must not take sides". How does it NOT take a side to refer to the Republican-controlled trial without also referring to the Democrat-controlled impeachment?
If the lead as written is inconsistent with the body (I'm not convinced that it is), then the body should change, not the lead.
It's my understanding that there is wide agreement the lead should refer to both or neither, and that "neither" is preferred for the sake of brevity. A similar edit was reverted without other objection on 1 Sep.[5] ―Mandruss ☎ 05:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've reverted.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:12, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
@Mandruss, @Jack Upland: The statement in question is not about the whole impeachment, it is only about the trial where acquittal occurred. It is not "taking a side" at all and was purely factual. Also I wrote "Republican-controlled Senate" not "Republican-controlled trial", the latter phrasing is semantically faulty and alters the statement in a subtle way that helps your objection. I do see your point however and would be fine with "Democratic-controlled" House of Representative being added to the previous sentence as a compromise. In hindsight, I wish I had added that with my first edit.
Regardless of all that, the sentence "The Senate acquitted him of both charges in February 2020.", which might appear innocuous at-first-glance, I believe is not neutral. When reading it, people will assume it was a fair trial and the verdict was fair because being fair is a tacit assumption people make when reading about trials. It is that hidden assumption that turns it from simply a statement into a misleading enthymeme that helps people draw an unstated conclusion that Trump was innocent. THAT is bias. There was nothing normal about this trial although the lead might give readers that impression if they know nothing beforehand. With the sole exception of Romney, deliberation and voting was completely political. The statement, as it currently stands, appears downplay the contentious of the verdict as if saying "nothing more to see here folks" and ties everything up with a nice bow. But the rest of the article down below shows this is not the case and votes were along party lines and contentious and there's more to the story than simply a normal trial. The lead should not give the reader a false summary of the rest of the article. I believe my edit made the article MORE neutral, not less.
I've suggested one possible way to make my edit acceptable to you. I'm open to other rewordings that address my concerns. Or counterarguments. Jason Quinn (talk) 07:24, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
people will assume it was a fair trial
To imply that it was not a fair trial is to take a side, and I'm fairly certain most Republicans would disagree.unstated conclusion that Trump was innocent
To imply that Trump was not innocent is to take a side, and I'm fairly certain most Republicans would disagree. That I would strongly disagree with Republicans on both counts is entirely beside the point. I'm also fairly certain this is the whole point of NPOV's nutshell. I could accept referring to "both" but my preference is "neither" for brevity, as I said – leads are often forced to omit salient points because of very limited space. I will never accept referring to one without the other, not in this wikilife. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:36, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think you're overthinking it. Your wording is not neutral, and it is unnecessary detail for the lead.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Is the photo op section really necessary?
Is the photo op section really necessary? This article is excessively long, and the photo op was a trivial moment in a presidency filled with similarly shocking events. There are ten sections in the Presidency section, and the photo op is one of them. Is it really notable enough to be worth that much space? Thanoscar21talk, contribs 23:12, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- In theory it is not really that significant, but as it has its own article I think you will find it difficult to get consensus to remove. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:15, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- The consensus of editors is that this incident was the equivalent of Kristallnacht and the USA is now living under a fascist regime because Trump held a Bible upside down.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:31, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- He didn’t hold the Bible upside down, and the incident wouldn’t have been notable if he hadn’t used federal forces to clear peaceful and lawful protesters from the area to get to the church.
Of course, with his new steroid-powered superpowers he could have just jumped over the protesters.Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC) - @Jack Upland: - your judgment in the above comment is way off the mark. The photo op was terrible not because the Bible was upside down, but because peaceful protesters were forcefully cleared for it. starship.paint (talk) 08:41, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm confused: was the Bible upside down or not?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:49, 11 October 2020 (UTC
- You really need to take a look at the cites and/or the WP article one of these days (there are pictures and videos, including the three videos in this article). No, it wasn't upside down but there were "reports" on Twitter that it was and then Fox News (repeat: FOX NEWS) reported it and Trump complained about Fox News reporting on it. And whether right side up, upside down, sideways, or flat on his head, it doesn't matter. What's important is how he got there. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:50, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'm assuming the upside-down bible part wasn't deleted before, as it's nowhere in sight in this article or the main one on the incident, but just a simple google search on it shows it's false, but has been used in some misinformation efforts. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 12:23, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- By walking on his hands?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:20, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- You really need to take a look at the cites and/or the WP article one of these days (there are pictures and videos, including the three videos in this article). No, it wasn't upside down but there were "reports" on Twitter that it was and then Fox News (repeat: FOX NEWS) reported it and Trump complained about Fox News reporting on it. And whether right side up, upside down, sideways, or flat on his head, it doesn't matter. What's important is how he got there. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:50, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I'm confused: was the Bible upside down or not?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:49, 11 October 2020 (UTC
- He didn’t hold the Bible upside down, and the incident wouldn’t have been notable if he hadn’t used federal forces to clear peaceful and lawful protesters from the area to get to the church.
- It does seem strange to have this as its own sub-section as if it as at the same level as "Foreign policy" or "Impeachment". Efcharisto (talk) 02:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- I agree it is incongruous.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- It makes sense to me - extremely notable event. Feoffer (talk) 02:28, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Nobody is saying it is not notable, they are saying in comparison to the rest of the lengthy article. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:06, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- It wasn't a trivial moment. He used federal forces to clear peaceful and lawful protesters from the area for an exercise in vanity. That's what dictators do. The chairman of the joint chiefs of staff felt the need to apologize for his involvement. That's not trivial, either. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:23, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Nobody is saying it is solely trivial, they are saying in comparison to the rest of the lengthy article. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:07, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- I would oppose outright deletion, since a fair number of sources describe this as a "legacy-defining" moment for his presidency. For what it's worth, what occurred at Lafayette Square continues to reverberate today (see, in the last few days, this and this). Academics have commented upon this in terms of a rupture in civilian-military relations and risks to the apolitical perception of the military. Those are not unimportant things. I'm fine with demoting the section to not be top-level on par with impeachment etc. (I do agree that is odd). Neutralitytalk 16:31, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, I don't support removing it, it's definitely notable. I'm gonna move it to the protests subsection, as part of the BRD. Thanoscar21talk, contribs 21:56, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Those are relatively unimportant things compared to most of the rest of the article's content. One line in a section about protests generally would be enough. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:50, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Thanoscar21: The Lafayette Square events and images (thanks, Neutrality for providing the link) don’t belong in the "Protests" section (which only deals with the massive protests after Trump’s election). It isn’t notable because there were protests, it is notable because of what the administration did. That’s what makes the event an outlier in this article, so far. It wasn’t the only authoritarian move by Trump (the pardons, the corruption, dismantling federal regulations, attempting to usurp legislative authority). We could basically stick most of the subsections of "Domestic policies" in a section called "Authoritarian actions" and add the Lafayette Square event to that. For now, I'm moving it into domestic policies where it isn't any more out of place than the pardons of his friends, supporters, and business associates/acquaintances. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 06:13, 11 October 2020 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 09:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Trimming", Thanoscar21, really, and hiding it in two separate edits ([6], [7])?
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark A. Milley, later apologized for accompanying Trump on the walk and thereby "creat[ing] the perception of the military involved in domestic politics".[1]
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff apologizing for being duped by his Commander in Chief into being there is trivia to be trimmed while Trump's claim that he is an ally of peaceful protesters is somehow a vital piece of information? Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 06:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've put off moving the section until I can revert the "trim" (1RR). Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 06:44, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Space4Time3Continuum2x, from my POV, it's a biography about him, not his generals. From your POV, now, I see how it could be whitewashing. Why don't we just make a controversies section and pack a lot of stuff in there? Thanoscar21talk, contribs 17:50, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanoscar21 In Trump's case there would be very little left outside that section, and I'm not a fan of controversies sections in general. We usually wind up arguing not just about the content per se, but also about whether it's controversial or not. I moved the item (with the general :) from Protests into the Domestic policies section, after Pardons. Most editors who contributed to this discussion were concerned with its level, so that's no longer a problem. It's three weeks until the election, and I concur with Mandruss to hold off until then. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 07:02, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- This certainly doesn't belong under "Protests". I think the problem with this is that you need a lot of words to explain the impact that this had on some people. That's why it's better dealt with by an article. This article could refer to the "Lafayette Square incident" (or something like that) and then link to that article.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:45, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I consider the six sentences the bare minimum coverage for this top article. The subsection also has a link to the long main article (Donald Trump photo op at St. John's Church). Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 09:34, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, but you're obviously wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:42, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Not obvious to me, obviously. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 09:47, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- True. Are you really saying that that day was the most important in Trump's life???--Jack Upland (talk) 09:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I haven't said that. This article names every single authoritarian strongman he has praised, with Wikilink and a separate cite for every one of them, so mentioning his own authoritarian actions seems perfectly appropriate to me. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:21, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- If it's not the most important day in his life, how can you justify giving it more words than any other day?--Jack Upland (talk) 21:42, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I haven't said that. This article names every single authoritarian strongman he has praised, with Wikilink and a separate cite for every one of them, so mentioning his own authoritarian actions seems perfectly appropriate to me. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:21, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- True. Are you really saying that that day was the most important in Trump's life???--Jack Upland (talk) 09:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Not obvious to me, obviously. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 09:47, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, but you're obviously wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:42, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I consider the six sentences the bare minimum coverage for this top article. The subsection also has a link to the long main article (Donald Trump photo op at St. John's Church). Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 09:34, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Space4Time3Continuum2x, from my POV, it's a biography about him, not his generals. From your POV, now, I see how it could be whitewashing. Why don't we just make a controversies section and pack a lot of stuff in there? Thanoscar21talk, contribs 17:50, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Remove / trim to one or two sentences. Although it generated headlines, it's irrelevant fluff in the grand scheme of things, and certainly not one of the top ten subdivisions of his presidency. — Amakuru (talk) 09:49, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I completely agree with Amakuru. This incident should be reduced to a couple of sentences, and should not have its own subsection. The main article should be linked via a wikilink in the content. Some of the discussion here is way over the top; come on, folks, this was not dictatorship. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:21, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Reverted for "Too much information, and too many citations."
Changing a 2-citation to a 3-citation bundle is hardly WP:OVERCITE as many other pages (Barack Obama's and Mitt Romney's to name a few) have them. WP:OVERCITE is also an essay not a guideline, so that reason seems to be invalid. As for too much information, the article is certainly long, but adding Netanyahu to the list is hardly any difference. The Gallup poll addition is also significant; the Bush reference could be removed for length, but the poll is certainly equally if not more informative than the 2020 Pew poll. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 13:51, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- I would be fine with replacing the poll with another poll, but we don't need to include every single other leader Trump has said he likes with its own citation. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:37, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- Ok, I can replace the Pew one with the Gallup one, I guess. The sources I added indicate that Netanyahu and Trump's relationship is significantly closer than that of the other leaders mentioned. To omit him seems rather dishonest, and is only adding 2 words to the already 20,000 or so word count of the article. If he should replace someone, it should at least be with Xi Jinping, since Trump has called him enemy in 2019 (something not he or even Pompeo has called Egypt's Sisi or Turkey's Erdogan), accused Xi of a disinformation attack on the US and Europe, and is currently blaming/trying to punish Beijing for the pandemic. Multiple outlets have also suggested his "friendship" with Xi is linked to his trade deal, it's certainly not as notable as the other entries of strongmen.
- I think the rewording of the January Gallup source on his career best approval rating, with the addition of the USA Today source is also significant, as it helps understand why his ratings have been so stable. It can be trimmed of course, but keeping the section as it is now with the implication that 40% of Americans are propaganda-consuming Trump cultists is not very productive, even if it's an understandable idea. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 08:21, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- I would not oppose replacing Xi Jinping with Benjamin Netanyahu. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:36, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'm also planning to change the China section from "on other occasions..." to "Trump has also juxtaposed verbal attacks on China with praise of Xi Jinping, which has been attributed to trade war negotiations with the leader.[1][2]. After initially praising China for its handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, he began a campaign of criticism over its response starting in March.[3][4]" Donkey Hot-day (talk) 15:08, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- I would not oppose replacing Xi Jinping with Benjamin Netanyahu. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:36, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think the rewording of the January Gallup source on his career best approval rating, with the addition of the USA Today source is also significant, as it helps understand why his ratings have been so stable. It can be trimmed of course, but keeping the section as it is now with the implication that 40% of Americans are propaganda-consuming Trump cultists is not very productive, even if it's an understandable idea. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 08:21, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Followup: Lafayette Square protester removal
We currently have a whole subsection in the Domestic policy section called "Lafayette Square protester removal and photo op." It includes two paragraphs and three external videos. It’s a level 4 heading which puts it in the same class as large issues like "Economy and trade", "Energy and climate", and "Health care". Per the discussion above all this seems like massive overkill. At the same time, we don’t have anything at all about the racial justice protests that have been such a huge thing this year. Maybe we should create a subsection about the Black Lives Matter protests, and make this Lafayette Square thing into a paragraph in that subsection. We could call the subsection "Social justice protests". Or maybe there is some better place for it. But I do think we should reduce our coverage about this incident and subsume it into a larger topic. Thoughts? -- MelanieN (talk) 00:20, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've now trimmed and merged the subsection per that discussion. Protests regarding specifically racial justice probably only warrant a couple of lines in this article but are very adequately described in much detail in other articles. As it relates to Donald Trump, this is another issue that has risen and promptly disappeared from significant public interest. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:26, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- As discussed before, that merge places the subsection under "Protests", which deals with protests at the time of the election, and outside of the "Presidency" section, which is clearly wrong. It refers to actions he took as President. And that solution has already been rejected in the discussion above. (And why a new discussion?) The Black Lives Matter protests were triggered by the killing of George Floyd by the Minneapolis police — not essentially a federal issue. I think the problem with the Lafayette Square incident is that it can't be summed up simply, without including context and reactions. I think we should drop it entirely as it had no major consequences--Jack Upland (talk) 00:45, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
not essentially a federal issue
- as if being a federal issue would automatically qualify something for this Trump biography. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)- No one said it did. It's just the protests weren't generally against the Trump administration. This is no an article about everything that has happened during the Trump presidency.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:26, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- The subsection included protests that happened during Trump's presidency as well as protests before. This issue might warrant moving the Protests subsection, and I was surprised to see that the section was not in "Public profile". Onetwothreeip (talk) 01:34, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- I tend to think, as MelanieN suggested, that protests should be dealt with in context. I think a section about "Protests" that included any protest against Donald Trump for any reason at any time would be confusing and not very meaningful. The current section could confuse a reader into thinking the Lafayette Square protests were protests against the 2016 election. There is no indication in the text what the protests were about, for that matter there is no indication why Trump went to the church and held up a Bible (right way up).--Jack Upland (talk) 07:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have updated the paragraph to clarify this. Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:30, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- I am OK with the current version as updated by Onetwothreeip. It is in the "protests" section, which I think is appropriate, and it includes a mention of the George Floyd protests (which I agree were not primarily about Trump, although they were a major theme of the news in his final year in office, and they did provoke a lot of reaction from him along "law and order" themes). This "protests" section follows immediately AFTER the section "Election to the presidency" and includes protests that followed his election, so this is an appropriate placement IMO. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:50, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- I have updated the paragraph to clarify this. Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:30, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- I tend to think, as MelanieN suggested, that protests should be dealt with in context. I think a section about "Protests" that included any protest against Donald Trump for any reason at any time would be confusing and not very meaningful. The current section could confuse a reader into thinking the Lafayette Square protests were protests against the 2016 election. There is no indication in the text what the protests were about, for that matter there is no indication why Trump went to the church and held up a Bible (right way up).--Jack Upland (talk) 07:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- As discussed before, that merge places the subsection under "Protests", which deals with protests at the time of the election, and outside of the "Presidency" section, which is clearly wrong. It refers to actions he took as President. And that solution has already been rejected in the discussion above. (And why a new discussion?) The Black Lives Matter protests were triggered by the killing of George Floyd by the Minneapolis police — not essentially a federal issue. I think the problem with the Lafayette Square incident is that it can't be summed up simply, without including context and reactions. I think we should drop it entirely as it had no major consequences--Jack Upland (talk) 00:45, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm not OK with it. (MelanieN, there was a discussion less than a week ago, why start a new one? You don't seem to have read the Protests section which is about the protests in 2016 and 2017.) The importance of the event wasn't that there was a protest, it was the government's response to it (and General Milley's later apology). I don't see a consensus to add this event to the Protests section. 16:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) IMO it isn't even important what the reason for the protest was. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Structure
The Manual of Style says, In general, present a biography in chronological order, from birth to death, except where there is good reason to do otherwise. Within a single section, events should almost always be in chronological order
(MOS:BLPCHRONO). I understand this is often honoured in the breach, but I think the structure of this article could be improved. Someone who has no familiarity with Trump's life might have a lot of trouble following what happened. For example:
- "Political career" generally deals with his political career before he became President, but also includes the 2020 campaign and a miscellaneous selection of protests which occurred during his presidency.
- "Business career" includes "Conflicts of interest" which relates to his presidency.
- "Public profile" generally deals with his presidency, but has some other things thrown in, for example under "Popular culture".--Jack Upland (talk) 06:32, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- There is little point in messing with the structure of the article until maybe 30-40% of it is removed per WP:SS. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Messing"? It's already a mess.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Summary style for Foreign policy
I believe the Foreign Policy section needs to be dramatically reduced as part of an overall strategy of sensible reduction. The vast majority of it is "important" in that it is well covered in reliable sources, but almost none of it is biographically significant to Donald Trump when taken in the context of his entire life. We have an excellent article at Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration that includes most, if not all the relevant material already, and we link to it. We do not need to duplicate its content here. The parts that are significant to Trump's presidency are ALSO properly covered in Presidency of Donald Trump. So my proposal, in a nutshell, is this:
- Keep the first paragraph of the section's introduction.
- Delete everything else in the section entirely, taking care to make sure its content is in either Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration, Presidency of Donald Trump, or both.
I'm sure you will all agree this is pretty radical, but I would argue it fully embraces what the summary style guideline is trying to achieve, which this rather unwieldy article really needs. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:05, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- The suggestion makes sense; there have been other recent edits adopting this strategy. Be careful of the citations, of course, that none deleted are used elsewhere. It would be nice to try to retain all the "See Also" links in the revision, perhaps a table or, dare I say it, a list. Might be appropriate to retain a brief discussion of Trump's views on NATO. Bdushaw (talk) 15:59, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, please. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:15, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note that the lead will also likely have to be revised/reduced as well, since it is meant to reflect the content of the article body. Bdushaw (talk) 19:16, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
To those who are working on cutting the article now -- Are you sure you're not making the same mistake that started the last round of cutting, confusing code lentgth for word count. Are you sure it's the article text and not reference templates that are the bulk of the bit count? I'm concerned about cutting material that relates to Trump the man, his personal style and unique approaches to governance. Those facts are widely noted and relate to his biography much more than a recitation of dates and events, e.g. the wrestling stuff that I was recently removed without apparent objection. Love letters w. Kim, caging dark skinned infants, etc. is noteworthy description of Trump the man, regardless of whether these events also related to US governance and policy. And by the way, the latter is by no means clear. SPECIFICO talk 20:55, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Multiple sections of this article need to be given a summary treatment. Right now this article reads as if both Trump-lovers and Trump-haters have spent months trying to include every single piece of information in this article which is inappropriate. The reason this article is so long as it stands is because people threw summary style out the window.
The parent article should have general summary information, and child articles should expand in more detail on subtopics summarized in the parent article
- this is not happening here. There is absolutely no reason that section on foreign policy with its own article should have any detail on the policy - it should summarize the foreign policy succinctly without getting into specifics. Another quote:Sometimes editors will add details to a summary section without adding those facts to the more detailed article. To keep articles synchronized, editors should first add any new material to the appropriate places in the detailed article, and, if appropriate, summarize the material in the summary section
- this has happened here so much that it's insane. Everyone wants "their wording" or "their facts" in this article - and others don't challenge them on it enough. I commend any attempt to return the sections of this page to summary style by anyone and encourage new additions to this page to be heavily scrutinized to determine if they are in line with summary style or not. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:03, 9 October 2020 (UTC)- Well said. I do not think the problem is necessarily with Trump-lovers and Trump-haters though, but people obsessed with including every little bit of news. Me I do enjoy Wikipedia, but I am aware WikiNews is a separate project. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:24, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- (ec) Well said. With a bit more support, maybe we can get this article fixed by around the time that it doesn't matter much anymore. On the bright side, maybe we'll learn something and avoid making the same mistake with his successor's BLP. Or maybe not. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:27, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: "Are you sure you're not making the same mistake that started the last round of cutting, confusing code length for word count."
Actually, my motivation has absolutely nothing to do with article length or word count. It is entirely to do with the fact that almost none of the foreign policy section is biographically significant. It is significant to America. It is significant to the world. It is significant according to reliable sources. But it is not significant when trying to summarize Trump's entire life. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:37, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is the point we were trying to make with #Current consensus #37. That failed for two reasons:
- Editors didn't understand what was meant by "summary-level". When that was clarified, too late, the feeling was "That's not what I supported."
- Certain broad areas like foreign policy "have a lasting impact on his [...] long-term presidential legacy", so once that condition was met editors felt they had a green light to include anything they wanted in those areas. That was not the intent of the proposal, either. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think it's reasonable to have one paragraph, but I don't think that the existing first paragraph is any good for this purpose. I find it hard to accept that Trump's foreign policy is not at all biographically significant. We need a summary of what he's done. I think the size of the article is due to the fact that it was already large, and then, since he's been president, editors have added as much news as they can. And it's the Trump haters who are mostly to blame. I don't think any Trump lover has had any impact on this article, except for a brief rant on the Talk page. It's editors who think they've found a smoking gun and need to reveal it to the world.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:21, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Jack Upland: This is both plain wrong and unnecessarily divisive. It's true of EVERY biography of a particularly notable individual that editors will tend to bloat it. Frankly, assigning blame in the way that you have is a violation of the editing restrictions we have here. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:36, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've got a perfect right to identify what I think is the editing problem here. The Lafayette Square incident is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:46, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Jack Upland: This is both plain wrong and unnecessarily divisive. It's true of EVERY biography of a particularly notable individual that editors will tend to bloat it. Frankly, assigning blame in the way that you have is a violation of the editing restrictions we have here. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:36, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Well, the first sentence is not a reasonable characterization of his statements or actions, and its sources are from long before the actions in office that have defined his approach to foreign affairs. SPECIFICO talk 23:05, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
I appreciate and support Scjessey's intention - this section can and should be streamlined. But foreign policy is a central part of any presidency (especially because US presidents have much more leeway there than in other policy areas), and Trump's presidency is the most important part of this article. Reducing the section to just one paragraph would mean that this topic area is not given its due weight. Recall also that per WP:SUMMARY, this article needs to be able to stand on its own as a self-contained unit.
One good approach to separating the wheat from the chaff in this section would be to distinguish things that Trump said from things that he actually did, and reduce coverage of the former. To take one example from the "ISIS, Syria, and Turkey" subsection, Trump's offensive comments about the Kurds (e.g. "suggested some of them were worse than ISIS" etc.), while notable, are less important than his decision to actually abandon them as US allies, with lasting geopolitical consequences.
Regards, HaeB (talk) 08:09, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- That is the sort of reasoning that has produced the article's chronic size problem, and its advocates have proven unable to otherwise get the size under control despite years of discussion about it. See #Historical file size and bear in mind that readable prose size – now at 121% of the suggested maximum after a number of days of fairly aggressive trimming – is likely always roughly proportional to file size. There would be no reason to believe this will be different this time around. So we're relaxing conventional thinking in this case and allowing in new ideas. We believe the concept of "standing on its own" can mean whatever one wants it to mean – even now, much is omitted – and we think it can mean stand on its own with far less detail about foreign policy. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:28, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- It's unclear to me what "sort of reasoning" this is referring to precisely. I take you at your word that there have been past discussions about this article that you have found difficult and frustrating, but I would appreciate not being blamed for previous debates that I was not part of. Again, I agree that inconsequential details in this section can and should be reduced. And above I already made some concrete suggestions on how to achieve that, which I haven't yet seen a response to.
- It also appears that you are conflating process and outcome here. If your point is that incremental reductions risk too much being thwarted by reverts, and prefer to proceed using something like a section-wise TNT, then that's a reasonable discussion to have. But anyone who argues that this article should not be subjected to existing content policies and guidelines like WP:NPOV, WP:SUMMARY etc., or that these should be amended with exceptions like "unless the article is about a sitting US president that is more than 20% above the recommended article size" will need to get consensus for such a policy change first. And yes, promoting the highly unusual (cf. below) view that Donald Trump's impact on US foreign policy was a negligible part of his presidency, by re-weighting this article according to that POV, would violate WP:NPOV. NPOV does not "mean whatever one wants it to mean"; rather, it has always been understood that its requirements on weighting and balance apply on the level of each individual article too. Regards, HaeB (talk) 03:47, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
If your point is that incremental reductions risk too much being thwarted by reverts
- No, my point is that incremental reductions have proven ineffective at keeping the article to a reasonable size, mostly because most of the article's editors are very reactive to daily headlines, turning a biography into a news summary, instead of slowing down, stepping back, and taking a longer view. Every x incremental reduction is followed by 2x new content. This fact is readily apparent in the #Historical file size graph, and it is not going to be substantially changed by further incremental reductions. Your interpretation of PAGs differs from mine, and I've found it unproductive to debate unproveable interpretations. I stand by my position and I expect you will do the same. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:36, 13 October 2020 (UTC)- I had made a very concrete proposal above on how to substantially reduce this section's size by taking a longer view and addressing WP:NOTNEWS issues. It would be great if you could engage with that proposal instead of nebulously accusing me of a wrong "sort of reasoning".
Every x incremental reduction is followed by 2x new content. This fact is readily apparent ...
- Even granting some rhetorical exaggeration, this is plainly wrong. Three months ago, the "Foreign policy" section had around 2430 words, two months ago, it was around 2709 words. One month ago it was down to around 2027 words, following incremental reductions by MrX (which including removing some longstanding content). Contrary to your theory, today the section is still just around 2131 words. I think you need to reexamine your assumptions about process.- Collaborating on Wikipedia is all about interpreting policies and guidelines. If, at some point during such a conversation, one finds oneself unable to formulate good arguments supporting one's own interpretation, that might be a good moment to step back and reconsider whether one is really still in alignment with the respective policies and guidelines. Regards, HaeB (talk) 02:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- I was referring to the article overall, not the foreign policy section alone, as clearly evident in my reference to the graph, which is about the article overall, not the foreign policy section alone. The graph clearly shows that surgical trimming efforts have been ineffective at controlling article size, which is the larger and more important issue here in my view. As you seem less interested in hearing me than in lecturing me, I'll bow out of this subthread now. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:37, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I was aware that your graph is about the entire article. (And thank you for making it; it is useful information.) But if one wants to understand the effect of individual interventions (such as Mrx's September 7 trimmings) and make inferential claims (every A is followed by B...), it's more instructive to focus on the corresponding section instead. An approach that has been found to work within one section could then be extended to the entire article. Regards, HaeB (talk) 06:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- I was referring to the article overall, not the foreign policy section alone, as clearly evident in my reference to the graph, which is about the article overall, not the foreign policy section alone. The graph clearly shows that surgical trimming efforts have been ineffective at controlling article size, which is the larger and more important issue here in my view. As you seem less interested in hearing me than in lecturing me, I'll bow out of this subthread now. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:37, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- Seems to me that, to proceed with minimal disruption, the place to start with the proposed section revision is to first develop and agree on the first 2-3 summary paragraphs, even allowing for some temporary redundancy. With that in place, subsequent sections could be more easily deleted. Such a summary may not be easy - I've been thinking about how we have to boil down/reduce large amounts of text to simple summaries for the lead, essentially synthesizing a lot of material to a single statement. When that happens it, of necessity, looks bad for Trump and gets some blowback. Such reduction is a gray area of Wikipedia policy - one gray area is the selection and organization of material, another area is this one, the reduction of substantial text down to a summary statement; both gray areas are ripe for POV to sneak in, however well intentioned an editor may be. It suggests that the best citations to look for are those that support such broad statements or summaries. For a summary of this section, Trump's stances on NATO, Iran, Climate/Paris Accords, and China stand out as worth a mention, perhaps in the context of his general approach of undoing everything of his predecessor. ...and we're already on the slippery slope... Bdushaw (talk) 09:57, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- e.g. Trump's Obama obsession drives his foreign policy Bdushaw (talk) 10:02, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- @HaeB:
"But foreign policy is a central part of any presidency"
So what? This is the article about Trump, not his presidency. Besides, it is domestic policy (stock market, tax cuts, healthcare, civil unrest, COVID) that has dominated this particular presidency, not foreign policy. All we need is one paragraph. We can spend a bit of time crafting that paragraph, but all the rest of it can go. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)- It seems you either overlooked or deliberately chose not to quote the rest of the sentence:
"But foreign policy is a central part of any presidency (especially because US presidents have much more leeway there than in other policy areas), and Trump's presidency is the most important part of this article."
- Your claim that foreign policy was just an insignificant part of Trump's presidency seems to be a highly questionable personal POV. This might be a good moment to recall that Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and that we have to avoid a US-centric bias even in articles about US topics. What's more, even US-based sources have frequently emphasized the historic impact of Trump's actions on the United States' standing in the world, and on international order in general. See e.g. this Politico overview from just a few days ago, or [8] ("shattered a 70-year consensus").
- Again, I too am in favor of reducing unnecessary detail in this section. But reducing this article's coverage of Trump's foreign policy actions to the same amount of space as his involvement in "All County Building Supply & Maintenance Corp." (i.e. one paragraph) would be a serious NPOV violation.
- Regards, HaeB (talk) 03:47, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- I agree. This proposed reduction goes too far. The biography of a man who is (or was) president needs information about his presidency. I also agree, that in the US President has great power and influence outside the USA, arguably more than inside it. The USA is a federal system, and the states control much of domestic policy. At the same time, the president has to negotiate with Congress in order to get his agenda across. The president cannot just murder a man in Florida, but he or she can despatch a drone to Yemen. Trump's foreign policy saw him stride the international stage, confronting nuclear-armed North Korea, for example. People in the future will want to hear about this, when reading a biography of the man. Reluctantly, I have come to the conclusion we need to accept a big article. If there are technical problems, then cut it in half, as discussed. But cutting foreign policy to one paragraph will satisfy very few people, and I don't think it will last. Any one of us could produce a shorter article, but together we will fail. We should stop trying to do the impossible.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:00, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- I also think there is an assumption that Trump will lose. Well, maybe. I think many editors here have a Biden hope. But that — probably — won't mean the end of Trump's life. There might be lawsuits. He might produce more books. There will probably be more revelations about his presidency — and they might not all be good! Then we will have a section on his death and then his legacy. Probably. Unless he's like Enoch. So there is no way we can stop the noisy tidal wave of news that flows about the Don. It is an illusion that November will necessarily mark the end of the article. Some editors may wish to bathe in this November Nirvana, but I have to sound a note of warning. It's not over, and it might not be close to being over...--Jack Upland (talk) 08:30, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Jack Upland:
"But cutting foreign policy to one paragraph..."
Have you read WP:SS? By shifting foreign policy entirely to the sub article and leaving only a summary, we are actually giving more room to an important topic without burdening what should be a focused biography. And hopefully, this would be just the first of many such moves. And again, you are equating the importance of foreign policy to the presidency to importance of foreign policy to Donald Trump. The two are not equal. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:32, 13 October 2020 (UTC)- With all due respect, I think you might need to read WP:SS more thoroughly yourself, e.g. these parts:
- "Each article on Wikipedia must be able to stand alone as a self-contained unit" with regard to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. This includes WP:PROPORTION, contrary to the "shifting foreign policy entirely to the sub article" logic above.
- "Where an article has lots of subtopics with their own articles, remember that the sections of the parent article need to be appropriately balanced."
you are equating the importance of foreign policy to the presidency to importance of foreign policy to Donald Trump
- this seems to be a strawman; Jack Upland's second comment had specifically emphasized the relevance of non-presidency aspects to Trump's biography.- Regards, HaeB (talk) 02:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I think you might need to read WP:SS more thoroughly yourself, e.g. these parts:
- @Jack Upland:
- I also think there is an assumption that Trump will lose. Well, maybe. I think many editors here have a Biden hope. But that — probably — won't mean the end of Trump's life. There might be lawsuits. He might produce more books. There will probably be more revelations about his presidency — and they might not all be good! Then we will have a section on his death and then his legacy. Probably. Unless he's like Enoch. So there is no way we can stop the noisy tidal wave of news that flows about the Don. It is an illusion that November will necessarily mark the end of the article. Some editors may wish to bathe in this November Nirvana, but I have to sound a note of warning. It's not over, and it might not be close to being over...--Jack Upland (talk) 08:30, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- I agree. This proposed reduction goes too far. The biography of a man who is (or was) president needs information about his presidency. I also agree, that in the US President has great power and influence outside the USA, arguably more than inside it. The USA is a federal system, and the states control much of domestic policy. At the same time, the president has to negotiate with Congress in order to get his agenda across. The president cannot just murder a man in Florida, but he or she can despatch a drone to Yemen. Trump's foreign policy saw him stride the international stage, confronting nuclear-armed North Korea, for example. People in the future will want to hear about this, when reading a biography of the man. Reluctantly, I have come to the conclusion we need to accept a big article. If there are technical problems, then cut it in half, as discussed. But cutting foreign policy to one paragraph will satisfy very few people, and I don't think it will last. Any one of us could produce a shorter article, but together we will fail. We should stop trying to do the impossible.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:00, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
- It seems you either overlooked or deliberately chose not to quote the rest of the sentence:
To inform this discussion with some objective data, I took a quick look at the length of the foreign policy sections in the articles about all US presidents from the last half century:
Article section | Length (ca.) |
---|---|
Richard Nixon#Foreign policy | 2728 words |
Gerald Ford#Foreign policy | 1976 words |
Jimmy Carter#Foreign policy | 2293 words |
George H. W. Bush#Foreign affairs | 1588 words |
Bill Clinton#Military and foreign affairs | 1782 words |
George W. Bush#Foreign policy | 3326 words |
Barack Obama#Foreign policy | 3034 words |
Donald Trump#Foreign policy (current version) | 2030 words |
Donald Trump#Foreign policy (Scjessey's proposal) | 71 words |
(I left out Ronald Reagan for now, as the foreign policy content is spread across several sections in that article, but it's way over 2000 words as well.)
While precedent is of course not policy, this list illustrates that the assumption underlying the proposal, namely that the foreign policy work of US presidents should be regarded as almost entirely irrelevant to their biographies, is an extraordinary claim and needs further evidence before we can base content decisions on it. Furthermore, while it shouldn't be taken as an argument against removing material that is determined to be irrelevant, it's worth being aware that Donald Trump#Foreign policy already has below average size.
Regards, HaeB (talk) 06:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. I think it is reasonable to look at other presidential bios as a guide. (It would be interesting to know how much words they spend on non-presidential life. From my observation, a fair bit.) Based on that the proposed cut seems extremely unreasonable.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:53, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- No it is not reasonable to look at other presidents who did not lead high-profile and very controversial lives before becoming president. For example Obama was largely unknown before he ran for president – at 22 years younger than Trump was when he announced. This point has been made over and over at this article. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:55, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Sigh. There's been a lot of unexpected pushback from my proposal after some initial support. It is clear to me that much of that pushback is coming from editors focused on how the article portrays Trump ("this bad thing he did must stay in!" and "this good thing he did must stay in!"), rather than editors more concerned with the Wikipedia project as a whole. That's disappointing. I think it would best if we put this trimming on the back burner until an election result has been announced. It will be much easier to do it then. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- @HaeB, Mandruss, Jack Upland, and Scjessey: We should absolutely action the 71-word proposal with a consensus here, but we can also do this in a WP:TNT way and add content again. If we divide the word count of foreign policy sections for presidents who had two terms in office by two, we would then find the section for Donald Trump to be the largest, and that's with foreign policy not being a defining characteristic of this presidency compared to some others. So for those who are concerned that 71 words is too few but are willing to see that we need to dramatically reduce the size of this article, we can move to 71 words and then come to agreements about what should be included additionally. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:16, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know what that means.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:47, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 October 2020
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. To: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 46th and current president of the United States. =) 2407:7000:8C21:9394:B064:212A:C763:1A40 (talk) 18:20, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
COVID-19 and the use of "minimized"
The verb "minimize" has two different definitions based on context:
1) reduce (something, especially something unwanted or unpleasant) to the smallest possible amount or degree.2) represent or estimate at less than the true value or importance.
In the sentence: "Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored..."
The word "minimized" should be replaced with an unambiguous word, such as: "downplayed", "underplayed", or "understated" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hyperlight (talk • contribs) 18:53, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- I think this is a very good point. "Downplayed" is probably the way to go, because the word was used in the Trump/Woodward tapes. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:10, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- I would agree with "downplayed". HiLo48 (talk) 00:14, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, he even used the word himself. [9] O3000 (talk) 00:18, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Downplayed" is still too informal for this article. I propose "disregarded", as it's far more specific. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:34, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- That's significantly different meaning, being passive. It doesn't speak to his public statements, which are the main point of the phrase. See Synonyms for minimize for other ideas. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, he's been anything but passive. But, we're "rounding the corner" on a day that hit a high in new cases. O3000 (talk) 00:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Disregarded" includes both active and passive concerns, but I would propose "actively disregarded" as more specific and neutral if editors believe it is important to highlight active involvement. Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC
- That's significantly different meaning, being passive. It doesn't speak to his public statements, which are the main point of the phrase. See Synonyms for minimize for other ideas. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Downplayed" is still too informal for this article. I propose "disregarded", as it's far more specific. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:34, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, he even used the word himself. [9] O3000 (talk) 00:18, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- I would agree with "downplayed". HiLo48 (talk) 00:14, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Minimize has three definitions. Merriam-Webster's definition #2 is "to underestimate intentionally, // minimizing losses in our own forces while maximizing those of the enemy. I'd suggest "trivialize" or "denied" (less dangerous than flu). Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 17:30, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Downplayed" sounds okay to me, but I don't think "minimized" is all that unclear in context. "Refused to acknowledge" might be another possible wording if we want something stronger. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:42, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Support minimized" - all in all, I think "minimized" is clear, given the context. "Refused to acknowledge" or "disregarded" imply he just ignored the issue, whereas he actively "argued the threat was not significant" (using quotes to suggest alternate, lengthy but more precise wording). Recall "it will all be gone by April", etc. Bdushaw (talk) 09:32, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Support downplayed, since we have the man using the word himself. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
COVID-19 pandemic response and the deaths of al-Baghdadi and Soleimani
The COVID-19 section for his presidency has no mention of the fact that he cut travel from most of China; it just says that he was "[initially] slow to address the spread of the disease, initially dismissing the imminent threat and ignoring calls for action from government health experts and Secretary Azar." So maybe, after that sentence, add something along the lines of this: However, Trump did restrict travel into the U.S from China in late January, and place many American travelers in quarantine. [1]