Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Netherlands/Archive 1

You can help peer review the article Golden Film. The goal of the review is reach A-class. – Ilse@ 14:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you User:Arnoutf and others for the help. The article is now assessed as A-class.

I would like to ask a native speaker of Dutch to record an audio file with the Dutch pronunciation of "Gouden Film" that can be linked in the Golden Film article. Your help is much appreciated! – Ilse@ 13:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I'm updating the article "The Singapore Stone", and would like to provide an English translation of an article, "Was Malaka emporium voor 1400 A.D. genaamd Malajoer? En waar lag Woerawari, Ma-Hasin, Langka, Batoesawar?" which was published in 1921 in the journal Bijdragen to di Taal-, Land-en Volkenkunde van Nederlandsch-Indie. I'd be grateful if someone could provide translations of both the article and journal titles. Thanks in advance. Cheers, Jacklee 17:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Article: "Was the trading post of Malacca named Malajoer prior to 1400 A.D.? And where were Woerawari, Ma-Hasin, Langka, Batoesawar?". The journal title is "Contributions to the Linguistics, Geography, and Anthropology of the Dutch East Indies". It looks like you misspelled the journal title; I would expect "Bijdragen tot de ..." Paul Koning 18:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. The journal title was given in the source I referred to as Bijdragen to di..., so perhaps the author made a mistake. Or could this be an older spelling? Cheers, Jacklee 19:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

That seems very likely; if it is a Dutch journal from 1921 "de" is almost certainly the word. Probably a journal typo, I have seen them often. Arnoutf 20:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

That, and the fact that "to" and "di" are not Dutch words... while "tot de" turns the title into a sentence that makes sense. Paul Koning 23:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Paul is probably right that there has been a typographical error in the source that I've been looking at. But I'd like to be sure. Do either of you have access to an online library catalogue in the Netherlands? Perhaps if one of you does a search for this journal we can confirm how it is spelled. Cheers, Jacklee 18:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Good point. How about this searchable version of the journal? A search for "Malajoer" on that website produces one hit: [1] which is an article from 1951 that references the one you mentioned (page 10 of the PDF, which is page 143 of the original magazine). The article is cited as "volume 77 of these Contributions, 1921". Note that the spelling of the article title is "Was Malakka..." (two k's, not one) which is indeed the Dutch standard spelling of that city's name. Unfortunately the on-line data on that site only goes back to 1950, so we can't retrieve the article you mentioned in that way. Paul Koning 19:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

We may want to keep an eye open for it, whether an online version appears in the future. At the moment many scientific publishers are scanning past issues backwards. Arnoutf 19:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your comments and assistance. If you're interested, I recently completed overhauling the "Singapore Stone" article – have a look if you're free! Cheers, Jacklee 16:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the Article Improvement Initiative be updated? It seems like there are not many users voting or nominating. Maybe only one article should be selected. Or maybe the initiative should be removed from the project until there are more participants for it. – Ilse@ 20:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I partially agree, this wikiproject seems to lack the momentum at this stage for such an initiative. On the other hand I have seen some increased editing on the current nominees since they were put up (kept track of them as being the creator of the template I had free hand in choosing the first set ;-). I will update the templates right now, let's keep it in the air for now and see whether it grows. PS How do you people think about the failed/no immediate succes. I added that because it will allow editors who favour an old candidate article over a newer one to contribute; but it may take away a bit of the focus again. Let me know. Arnoutf 20:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering if there is a really nice Dutch editor here willing to have a look at my recent photo request. I would really appreciate it.--Carabinieri 03:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Good idea I have created a new subpage Wikipedia:WikiProject Netherlands/Image requests listed in the sidebar, wikilinked to your list.Arnoutf 10:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Please take a look at this new article. I am not a Dutch speaker, so I could not 100% verify some of the information. It would also be nice to wikify the term "Besloten Vennootschap" as a legal corporate ownership form. Thanks. Consuelo D'Guiche 18:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The article about B.V. in the Dutch Wikipedia says it has an English translation. That translation is actually the article for Limited liability company. From a quick reading that seems to be a pretty close analog. The key point seems to be that both are "limited liability" and do not have publicly traded or freely transferable stock. So until/unless someone wants to write an English translation of the Dutch B.V. article that actually directly describes the Dutch term, you might as well point to the article for LLC. Paul Koning 20:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Also check this article Besloten Vennootschap. – Ilse@ 22:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I listed the article Golden Film as a featured article candidate. – Ilse@ 23:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

After several users suggested that the article was too 'listy', I have split off the list as List of films that received the Golden Film, and I have requested a peer review for the new list article. Your help is most welcome. – Ilse@ 15:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The featured article nomination of Golden Film was restarted by the featured article director. You can reply (again) to the nomination on: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates#Golden Film. – Ilse@ 13:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The article was not promoted due to a lack of comments/votes after the nomination was restarted. – Ilse@ 01:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I would like to notify the members of this WikiProject of the deletion discussion on the Dutch singer Lee Towers. If you wish to join the discussion, you can do so at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lee Towers. Aecis^Brievenbus 00:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The article ME/CVS Vereniging was deleted without discussion or alert. Regards, Guido den Broeder 15:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It's back up. Guido den Broeder 11:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

And deleted again, despite the addition of sources... Guido den Broeder 13:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a notable park in your country but the language barrier prevents me from editing the article directly.--Lenticel ^(talk) 12:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I started the article 2007 in the Netherlands back in January. That's also when I stopped editing it, I'm afraid, so it is now horribly outdated. I wanna get it back on track, but I could use the help of the members of this WikiProject. Aecis^Brievenbus 17:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The list List of films that received the Golden Film is nominated as a featured list candidate. – Ilse@ 10:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is promoted. – Ilse@ 01:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey everyone, can you please translate the following:

De vorming van Ararat is geologisch moeilijk te achterhalen, maar het type vulkanisme en de positie van de vulkaan doet vermoeden dat bij het sluiten van de Tethys-oceaan tijdens het Neogeen subductie-gerelateerd vulkanisme is opgetreden, zoals zich dat langs de plaatgrenzen van de Euraziatische en Afrikaanse en Arabische platen van Cabo de Gata tot aan de Kaukasus voordeed.

and

Het is niet bekend wanneer de laatste uitbarsting van Ararat plaatsvond, er zijn geen historische of recente waarnemingen van grootschalige activiteit vastgelegd. De laatste eruptie zal ergens in de laatste 10.000 jaar hebben plaatsgevonden. Het lijkt erop dat Ararat actief was in het derde millennium voor Christus; onder de pyroclastische stromen heeft men artefacten uit de vroege Bronstijd gevonden, evenals de overblijfselen van menselijke lichamen.

Wel is bekend dat Ararat in juli 1840 werd opgeschud door een grote aardbeving, waarvan de effecten het grootst waren in de omgeving van de Ahorakloof. Een onstabiel deel van de noordelijke helling stortte in en hierbij werden een kapel, een klooster en een dorp onder het puin bedolven. Volgens sommige bronnen is Ararat toen ook uitgebarsten, zij het onder de grondwaterspiegel.

Thanks a lot Deniz^T_C 07:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you need a literal translation, or a general idea of the meaning? – Ilse@ 09:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need exact literal translations, but somewhat better than rough translations of each sentence. Your call. I can kinda guess that the first part is about how Mount Ararat is formed, but need help for each sentence

My guess for second part: "It is not known exactly when the last eruption of Ararat took place ... (could not 'decipher' second sentence) The last eruption probably(?) took place in the last 10 thousand years. Pyroclastic evidence (?) ... suggest that Ararat was active in 3rd millenium BC

It is known that in July 1840 Mt Ararat ... which affected the surroundings of the Ahora Gorge the most...

thanks for the help Deniz^T_C 10:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The first part ("De vorming...voordeed") translates as follows: "The formation of Ararat is hard to retrieve geologically, but the type of vulcanism and the position of the vulcano raise the idea that subduction relation vulcanism occurred when the Tethys Ocean closed during the Neogene, as recently occurred along the borders of the Eurasian, African and Arabian plates from Cabo de Gata to the Caucasus." Aecis^Brievenbus 12:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

(after edit conflict):"The creation of Ararat is difficult to ascertain geologically, but the type of vulcanism and the position of the vulcan suggests that subduction-related vulcanism occurred at the closing of the Tethys ocean during the Neogene, such as occurred along the tectonic boundaries of the Eurasian and African and Arabic plates from Cabo de Gata to the Caucasus.

"It is not known when the last eruption of Ararat occurred, there are no historic or recent observations of large-scale activity recorded. The last eruption will have occurred somewhere in the last 10000 years. It seems that Ararat was active in the 3rd millenium BC; under the pyroclastic flows artefacts from the early Bronze Age have been found, and remains of human bodies.

"However, it is known that Ararat was shaken by a large earthquake in July 1840, the effects of which were largest in the neighbourhood of the Ahora Gorge. An unstable part of the northern slope collapsed and a chapel, a monastery and a village were covered by rubble. According to some sources, Ararat erupted then as well, albeit under the ground water level." Eugène van der Pijll 12:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot everyone Deniz^T_C 12:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia has articles on British Forces casualties in Afghanistan since 2001, Canadian Forces casualties in Afghanistan, German Armed Forces casualties in Afghanistan, Coalition casualties in Afghanistan and Civilian casualties of the War in Afghanistan (2001–present). How about creating an article Dutch Armed Forces casualties in Afghanistan? Aecis^Brievenbus 13:04, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Certainly seems an important article for us, especially seeing how the increasing casualties are influencing public opinion about the mission. Jeffpw 13:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

ME/CVS Vereniging (ME/CFS Association) is one of the three patient organizations for Chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis and post-viral fatigue syndrome in the Netherlands. The deleted article now is at deletion review. The references are in a foreign language and an issue at DRV is whether there was enough reference material independent of ME/CVS Vereniging's control or anyone associated with ME/CVS Vereniging to create a Wikipedia article. Please consider participating in that DRV to assist in determining whether the references are independent from ME/CVS Vereniging or in some way connected to ME/CVS Vereniging. -- Jreferee t/c 16:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The deletion was endorsed despite absence of concensus and an abundance of references. Guido den Broeder 22:22, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Anne Frank has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. --RelHistBuff 16:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

At the present time, Wikipedia has no image related to the Anne Frank Tree which is to be cut down on November 21 2007. Wikipedians in the area are encouraged to take a free picture before it is cut down. Thank you. Puchiko (Talk-email) 13:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll go there tomorrow and photograph it. Jeffpw 13:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The tree's location is not clearly defined in the article, but I think it is in the courtyard behind the building. If you put the picture(s) in Commons, I also point out you could write a Wikinews story which uses the picture(s). Will anyone be able to photograph the actual removal? One of the articles linked from the Wikipedia article says a new tree grown from a shoot of the old tree will replace the tree, so basically a clone will replace the tree. (-- SEWilco (talk) 17:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC))

At the time of the original plans to cut down the tree, there was a discussion on the village pump of the Dutch wikipedia. It seems that the tree is at the back of the house, and can be seen from a few windows of neighbouring houses. nl:User:Luijt said he was going to take a picture; you may want to try to contact him to see if he did. The discussion can be read at nl:Wikipedia:De kroeg/Archief 20061122. -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 19:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it's a stupid question but why is the tree to be cut down? -- Ekki01 (talk) 19:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

News sources:

• Washington Post
• The New York Times

Summary: The tree is diseased and rotten. The city council fears it might fall down on someone. Puchiko (Talk-email) 20:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The tree's situation is described at Anne Frank Tree. (-- SEWilco (talk) 21:45, 16 November 2007 (UTC))

I left him a message, but the discussion was from last year and he is not terribly active. I doubt if I will hear from him before the weekend, so I'll just go ahead and take the picture. It can't hurt to have an extra, in any event. -- Jeffpw (talk) 21:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The tree is behind the buildings on that block. Although not much of the tree was visible from Anne's hiding place, there is one hint that there are other windows which face the courtyard but not whether the windows are accessible to the public (nor whether it might be in the House or Museum). I haven't found mention of whether the courtyard is accessible to the public. Of course one could try asking the Museum staff. (SEWilco (talk) 19:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC))

And the Museum will be closed on the 21st.[2] Not surprising, with tons of wood and crane to move around. (SEWilco (talk) 05:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC))

I have spoken to the Anne Frank Huis direction, and the media representative will br calling me back this morning. I went there yesterday and tried to take a photo from the huis itself, but it is not seeable from the tour. I'll let you know if my request today is met with success. Jeffpw (talk) 09:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The Anne Frank Stichting has refused our request to take a picture. They say that AP and Reuters have been given access, and that is enough to document the tree. I explained about GFDL, but they were unmoved. I have made one last request, and the receptionist has said she will ask one more time, but I don't think it will be possible. I am sorry. Jeffpw (talk) 11:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to pull some strings from a different direction, but don't expect too much. User:Krator (t c) 12:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ladies and gentleman....we have a picture! Jeffpw (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you move it to Commons? Ekki01 (talk) 17:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it is Fair use. A professional photographer gave his permission for this one article. Jeffpw (talk) 17:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Do we need to add "© Herman Wouters" to the caption? Aecis^Brievenbus 20:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedians in the area might examine the other buildings on the block and see if they can get permission from another resident on the block to get a freely licensed photo. The tree is scheduled to be removed Wednesday, and the Museum will be closed due to moving tons of wood around. I suppose it will be easy to photograph logs on a truck on the street, but it would be nice to get the tree while it's still standing. At least the restricted photo does look nice with the leaves on it. (SEWilco (talk) 17:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC))

I suppose there's another option: Anyone know a pilot in the Netherlands who wants to go shoot some pictures? Keep an eye out for helicopters, there might be some there for a few minutes to get video for the TV news. For that matter, maybe a TV station would be willing to donate a frame from a video under GFDL (try contacting a public relations person at the TV station). Is a local TV station doing news in HD format? A single photo isn't much competition to them and they'd at least get credit for their donation in the image description page. (SEWilco (talk) 18:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC))

The Amsterdam article mentions there are radio and TV stations in the area but there are no details. Oh, there they are; I had to look at the country article to find the Culture article and there find mention of Media in the Netherlands. (SEWilco (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC))

I found an existing 2003 photo taken from the Westerkerk church tower just to the south. (SEWilco (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC))

I've just heard on the news that a judge decided that the tree won't be chopped down (at least not immediately). So there's some time for locally living Wikipedians to take a current photograph. Unfortunately, I live too far away in the South of NL otherwise I'd have a go. Ekki01 (talk) 18:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The judge has annulled the chopping permit. This means that the tree won't be chopped down any time soon. Aecis^Brievenbus 20:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Still it might be wise to make the photo as soon as possible, just to have an image on file. Arnoutf (talk) 22:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that there are very limited areas to take a photo. Most photos are taken by gaining access from the museum or adjoining apartments. The museum has flat out refused permission to private persons, and will only let AP and Reuters photograph. By the way, The photo I got permission to use in the article has been nominated for deletion. Jeffpw (talk) 22:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Jeffpw. Though I never imagined getting a picture would be so hard, I was happy to see how hard everyone worked to get a one. Even if the current photograph is fair use, it is still better than nothing, and as I have deduced form the above discussion, it was very hard to get. The deletion discussion looks very much in favour of keeping the image. Again, thanks for getting a picture. Puchiko (Talk-email) 15:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

You guys would make shitty secret agents. Pick a day when the museum is closed, hop the wall, and take the picture. Kaldari (talk) 17:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I've created a bounty for the photo on the Reward Board. Anyone want to add to the bounty? Let's make this worth someone's effort. Kaldari (talk) 17:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Gee, Kaldari. I'm not sure encouraging illegal act is really the best way to go towards building an encyclopedia. Your suggestion isn't feasible, in any event. If you look at pictures of the Anne Frank Museum, you will quickly see that the architecture precludes your James Bond fantasies. But thanks for putting your thinking cap on, however ill-fitting it may be. Jeffpw (talk) 17:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

James Bond could use a jet pack, which is a suitable (although not stealthy) tool. If a fence was the only obstacle then we just need a camera on a pole. But if you click on the coordinates and look at picture of the block you see there are buildings blocking the view. The building to the south is a church, but the tower there can only see the top of the tree. (SEWilco (talk) 17:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC))

Speaking of aerial pictures, here is the tree on Google Maps. Isn't there a public domain NASA image available or something? JACOPLANE • 2007-11-21 17:49

No, normal NASA satellite images would not have enough detail. That's why at the bottom of that Google Maps image you see copyright notices for the companies which provided higher resolution images (from airplanes). Those notices change for different parts of the world. (SEWilco (talk) 05:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC))

Okay. I did a Flickr search. I found a photograph of a tree. The photographer says he thinks it's "the chesnut [sic] tree that Anne Frank wrote about". I tried to compare it with the Fair Use picture, but I suck at stuff like that (and my glasses are broken). So, if anyone can compare the two pictures, please do. If someone can confirm that this is the right tree, I'll write to the guy begging him to re-license it under something like CC (it's currently an all rights reserved, which is useless, but I think a Flickr user is more likely to be willing to relicense his work than a professional photographer). Puchiko (Talk-email) 19:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It's the wrong tree. Tree: too small. Environment: obviously on a canal, Anne's tree is not. User:Krator (t c) 19:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll keep on searching. Puchiko (Talk-email) 19:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm virtually certain that is not the tree in question. Check out the photo set. If you look at the buildings in the tree picture, the one is of the house next to the museum, taken from the front. This can be verified by looking at the photo to the right of the tree pic, where the museum and the building next to it are pictured. The tree is actually in the back. If I am correct, this would be an elm and not a chestnut tree. you might want to A) verify that the guy (presumably a tourist) got access to the back of the museum; and B) ask someone at the reference desk or a wiki tree project if this is a chestnut or elm. Jeffpw (talk) 19:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The leaves and bark don't look right when compared to horse chestnut. (SEWilco (talk) 20:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC))

I contacted the user, and she (yes, she's female. My mistake for not checking the profile, and referring to her as "the guy") replied that "That tree was in fact outside the Anne Frank house, but on the street side of the building. I wasn't sure what kind of tree it was when I took it, so I assumed it might be the chestnut tree. It seems that it probably isn't, however, as it was the tree directly in front of the museum. I'm sorry to disappoint! Good luck finding a picture! Thanks for the message."' So her photograph is not what we're looking for, but I was pleased to find how friendly and kind she was. Puchiko (Talk-email) 15:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

: A judge temporarily blocked the tree removal. And a photo reward has been increased at Wikipedia:Reward board#Free-license photo of Anne Frank Tree. (SEWilco (talk) 05:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC))

Now that the tree isn't going to be cut down two days or whatever, is anyone willing to try the museum again? It's possible that the museum was reluctant to allow access because they didn't want to 'open the door' to everyone who wanted to see the tree before it was cut down. Perhaps also they were concerned someone from the Dutch Tree Foundation or some other organisation was going to try some stunt. Now that this has all calmed down a bit, you might have a better chance. Nil Einne (talk) 14:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

There are other buildings on that block, and it looked like one of the photos mentioned here was taken from a diferent direction than the museum (although I don't know if one can walk freely inside the courtyard or if each building's area is fenced off). -- SEWilco (talk) 18:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Our core article, Netherlands, has been nominated for our Article Improvement Initiative. Let Wikipedia:The Core Contest be another incentive to improve the article :) Aecis^Brievenbus 15:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I have proposed the creation of a new WikiProject related to WikiProject Netherlands: the WikiProject Dutch politics. If you are interested in joining such a WikiProject, you can express your interest at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Dutch Politics. Aecis^Brievenbus 20:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Articles related to Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçao, Saba, Sint Maarten and Sint Eustatius appear to be covered only by Wikipedia:WikiProject Caribbean. Should the scope of this WikiProject be expanded to include the whole of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, to work alongside WikiProject Caribbean on such articles? Aecis^Brievenbus 23:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

My guess would be yes, as they are part of the Kingdom. But I also see that the Category:Aruba is already a subcat of Category:Netherlands, so I'm guessing what happened is that those articles were already within the scope of this project, but just hadn't been tagged by it yet. John Carter (talk) 00:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have removed Category:Netherlands from Category:Aruba, and replaced it with Category:Kingdom of the Netherlands, since Aruba is not a part of the Netherlands, but of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Aecis^Brievenbus 00:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Recently the Dutch film award article Golden Film was not promoted to featured article, due to a lack of votes and comments after the featured article director restarted the nomination. With your help with the current peer review, I believe the article about this Dutch film award can soon be promoted to featured article. Thanks! – Ilse@ 12:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been reading through a number of articles about the Netherlands and the Dutch, and I'm starting to get the feeling that it's not my country they're describing. From Dutch customs and etiquette, for instance:

"Another rude sign is to raise a hand and stick up the middle finger. If this sign is accompanied by slapping the elbow of the raised arm with the palm of the other hand, it becomes one of the most insulting sexual gestures in Dutch culture."

I have never seen anyone make the last gesture (middle finger + slapping the elbow), not even at football matches.

"Nodding the head is a sign of agreement, but shaking the head from right to left is rarely a sign of disagreement."

It's actually quite a common sign of disagreement.

"Men are expected to wait until all women are seated before they themselves sit down."

Maybe I haven't visited the right occasions, but I have never come across this rule in everyday life.

"A second helping will be offered and it is polite to accept."

I thought it was één koekje bij de koffie?

"Current Dutch humor is subtle and somewhat black, rather than slapstick."

I think that's an unverifiable generalisation. There is black humour, yes, there's subtle humour, yes, but there's also terribly politically incorrect humour, from the Sam en Moos jokes of yore (collected by Max Pam) to Hans Teeuwen.

"They are the most experienced and successful traders in Europe."

Are they? Are we? What about the British, the Italians, the Germans, etcetera? Aecis^Brievenbus 00:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you can delete all things that you believe are untrue, since there is no backing up by references. – Ilse@ 23:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Most examples are cleary untrue. --Erwin85 (talk) 21:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

@Erwin85: I agree on with some of your points, but not all.

• Rude signs? Surely, the gesture is described improperly, but it does exist, in the Netherlands, as well as in the UK. It is like this: you hold your left underarm horizontally below your chest, then raise your other arm violently (with the underarm and middle finger pointing upwards) until the arm is stopped by your left hand. The gesture is an extension of 'standard' fuck you gesture, and it is not rare, I have seen it often enough in Holland, but it need not be explained to the Englsh; they use it too.
• Next three points are nonsense indeed. There is no fixed cookie etiquette nowadays, although the one kaakje treatment still survives.
• I believe humor is quite subtle in Holland, compared with other countries, but indeed, who is going to prove this?
• Germans make things better, but we sell them best. The Dutch are arguably the best traders in Europe, and among the best in the world. This is no place to discuss such statements in depth, but feel free to drop a message on my Dutch Wikipedia talk page, either in Dutch or English. nl:Overleg gebruiker:B222. B222 (talk) 14:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
  • The rude sign is indeed common as B222 describes, although the sexual connotation is probably lost and it has become just another insult.
  • Shaking head is no, men seating after women – perhaps in the bible belt but not regular anymore, "one cookie" seems to survive although that maybe relaxing (perhaps the editor putting it in comes from a relaxed family – second cookie ;-) Anyway, these are unsourced and most likely untrue/outdated or original research.
  • Humor is difficult, each country its own (the English humor s subtle with understatement and completely different from Dutch humor). Indeed Dutch humor can be extremely blunt (to the extent many others do not see the humor at all anymore). I agree this is problematic and without decent reference it should be removed.
  • Traders. Most experienced; I am pretty sure the Greeks exported wine to France when the Netherlands were still in the Bronze age, so I doubt that; Most succesful; how is that quantified/sourced? Yes, the Dutch economy has a relatively large proportion of trading corporations; but that does not necessarily indicated success. Again, a reference is essential oterwise it seems to much pro-dutch POV. So please take them all out. Arnoutf (talk) 14:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

1.for the obscene gestures... the english use that commonly compared to the dutch, which I have only seen a few times in my lifetime.2.the humor is both black, and sometimes subtle, but you cant narrow it down to a specific type3.experienced traders....this is not really debatablethe dutch had a massive fleet throughout our history. Compared to other populations the amount of people out at sea at any given time there is no comparison. This includes merchant vessels, fishing boats, and naval units... The dutch fleet at one point was the largest in the world. That included a massive amount of merchant vessels. The spice trade from the Dutch East Indies accounted for a large part of the worlds spice markets. The stock exchange and banking system as well as the currency were adapted to support a strong mercantile economy. There are too many things to list here, but the indisputable facts are that the Dutch are considered historically to be excellent traders with worldwide reaching influence. Wars were fought to keep our trading advantages and too many of our boys died for that history to be ignored. People may think I'm biased and pro-dutch, and I may be a little...lolbut just look up some history of the beginnings of European mercantilism, the spice wars, or the naval/merchant fleets between 1500–1800--Amsterdamned (talk) 07:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Nobody denies that the Dutch are very experienced and very succesful traders. However the statement "THE MOST experienced and MOST successful" is much more ambitious and hence requires very strong support from refeerneces. Arnoutf (talk) 14:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I have totally rewritten the Betuweroute-wiki this month, and then took a first look the talk-page, to learn that it was Start-class.

• The article was rated in november. After rewriting and extending the piece, I feel that a new rating is overdue.
• Is the talk-page start-class or the Betuweroute-wiki itself?
• A map would be nice, but I spend most of my wiki-time on Dutch Wikipedia. Maybe someone is more experienced on the ins and outs of maps and the WikiProject Trains/Maps task force? Other sources are welcome too.
• What else can I do to improve the article?
• Oh, and something totally different: Being a Dutchman, I have no native knowledge of English. Although my English is quite passable for my eyes, there may be recurrent quirks or faults. Feel free to inform me about such things!

As I am not often on English Wikipedia these days, consider these ways to contact me:

• Email to me at bertus@37.com
• You could write a message on my talk-page nl:Overleg gebruiker:B222 on Dutch Wikipedia

Messages are welcome in Dutch, English and German. Please mention your preferred language for an answer.

B222 (talk) 13:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk pages are not rated, the classification is on the talk page, as the unwieldy frames have no place in main space.

I have placed a copy of you request on Wikipedia:WikiProject Netherlands/Assessment where you can ask for reassessment in a pre-ageed place.

I have reassessed and confirmed the current start classification. For a report see Betuweroute talk page or the abovementioned Assessment page of this project. Arnoutf (talk) 13:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I have totally rewritten the tompouce wiki, and it may now qualify for the WikiProject Netherlands.

Enjoy! B222 (talk) 14:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The article Golden Film is a featured article candidate. You can vote now on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Golden Film. Thank you for your help! – Ilse@ 17:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

A few facts:

1 We have a few hunderd municipalities in this country and all of them have an article on Wikipedia.
2 Bigger towns in this country usually have the same name as their municipality.
3 As a consequence, the city and municipality of Enschede for example share an article. The municipality however also includes towns such as Boekelo. Boekelo and other towns are given an article of their own, while the main city has to share it's article with the municipality, which is non-desirable and may be confusing.
4 It appears whether or not a bigger town has an article of it's own is based entirely on whether the name is the same as the municipality. For example the town of Drachten has it's own article, and so does it's municipality Smallingerland, even though Drachten counts for the majority of the population of the municipality (just like Enschede which shares the article).

I personally believe this is not right. Please have a look at the articles Amsterdam and Government of Amsterdam. You should also have a look at the articles on a random American city and county with the same name: Yakima, Washington and it's county Yakima County, Washington. Maybe we need to follow those examples.

Recently I was involved in a thought-provoking discussion with User:Arnoutf on what to do with the article Leeuwarden. See Talk:Leeuwarden (city). It seems to me we have two options: create one article article for a town with the same name as the municipality and two articles for a town with a name different from the municipality's name (Bad idea in my opinion) or make sure cities and municipalities have independent articles and make sure they coexist without redundant information. A big job that is, I know. I have some ideas on how to achieve this goal but first I would like to give you the opportunity to share your thoughts on this matter.

Regards, --Baldrick90 (talk) 22:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to amend your statement. Even with large cities/towns there is something stange going on. For example Assen (city) is about 95% of Assen municipality, while Emmen city, although by far the largest town in its municipality, is much smaller than its municipality (see the largest city of Drenthe debate on the Netherlands article). There are many large cities that take up almost all the municipality (like Assen: examples are Amsterdam, Utrecht, Rotterdam, Leeuwarden etc.) however there are also several large towns that extend well beyond the central town (like Emmen: these include Ede and Apeldoorn etc.)

That said, I see some value in your proposal, but I would approach this in a pragmatic way; as the amount of work to do this all in one go is probably staggering. I would start further discussion with a (as far as possible mutually exclusive) list of issues for each of the type of article, to prevernt redundancies. Arnoutf (talk) 22:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Your proposal already appears to be carried out over at the Dutch Wikipedia. See for instance nl:Groningen (stad) and nl:Groningen (gemeente), nl:Ameland (gemeente) and nl:Ameland (eiland), nl:Amsterdam (gemeente) and nl:Amsterdam, nl:Apeldoorn (gemeente) and nl:Apeldoorn (stad), nl:Asten (gemeente) and nl:Asten (plaats), nl:Barneveld (gemeente) and nl:Barneveld (dorp), etcetera. I think this is a good way to go forward. Aecis^Brievenbus 23:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Starting more or less from fresh, think about all these additions: (dorp – village), (gemeente – municipality), (plaats – town), etc. It would make sense to agree on one appendix, perhaps (gemeente – municipality) in the vast majority of cases. Only Ameland (eiland – island) looks okay to me, but a redirect to (or perhaps from) Ameland (gemeente – municipality) would standardize this one too. Even though I suppose one or more bots could do a lot of work, it remains a major undertaking. B222 (talk) 07:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it would be necessary to make this distinction. We could keep the town/city/village articles where they are (e.g. Zwolle and Eindhoven) and create municipality articles (e.g. Zwolle (municipality) and Eindhoven (municipality). Disambiguation headers could point the reader from one to the other. I don't think it's necessary to move Zwolle to Zwolle (city) and Eindhoven to Eindhoven (city). Aecis^Brievenbus 12:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You can now support/oppose or comment to this featured picture candidate on Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates#Wilhelmina and Juliana.Thank you, Ilse@ 13:00, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The picture was promoted, thank you for your support. – Ilse@ 09:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice if there was more than one featured image for this WikiProject. Candidates can be first be peer reviewed on Wikipedia:Picture peer review, or nominated directly on Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates. For inspiration: some high quality images that might pass the nomination are:
       

Thanks, Ilse@ 15:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

How about any of the pictures by Jacob Olie? The self portrait dates back to 1862, the picture of the Oudeschans in Amsterdam dates back to 1863. These are among the oldest pictures of Amsterdam. Aecis^Brievenbus 16:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

How about some of the maps by Blaue commons:Blaeu? Arnoutf (talk) 16:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the photos of Jacob Olie would pass easily if they were of higher resolution (min. 1000 pixels). Blaeu images (like this one) would pass when they are used in English Wikipedia articles. See for detailed information about all criteria: Wikipedia:Featured picture criteria. – Ilse@ 10:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Prinsengracht by night

I nominated a beautiful photograph of the Prinsengracht as featured picture candidate. If you want support or oppose the nomination, please see Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates#Prinsengracht by night. Thank you for your help. – Ilse@ 11:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Submission of the Prince to the General

I nominated another image, of the arrest of Diponegoro by the Dutch General Hendrik de Kock. If you want support or oppose the nomination, please see Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Submission of the Prince to the General. Thanks, Ilse@ 23:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Help would be much appreciated in translating the following book titles, passages and terms appearing in the article "Emery Molyneux" that are not in English:

• "Tractaet Ofte Hendelinge van het gebruijck der Hemelscher ende Aertscher Globe. Gheaccommodeert naer die Bollen, die eerst ghesneden zijn in Enghelandt door Io. Hondium, Anno 1693 [sic: 1593] ende nu gants door den selven vernieut, met alle de nieuwe ontdeckinghen van Landen, tot den daghe van heden geschiet, ende daerenboven van voorgaende fauten verbetert. In't Latijn beschreven, door Robertum Hues, Mathematicum, nu in Nederduijtsch overgheset, ende met diveersche nieuwe verclaringhe ende figueren vermeerdert en verciert. Door I. Hondium".
• "Tractaet ofte handelinge van het gebruyck der hemelscher ende aertscher globe. ... Michiel Colijn, boeck-vercooper, woonende op't water, in't Huys-boeck, by de Oude Brugghe".

Do respond on the article's talk page. Thanks very much! — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 04:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

William III of England has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.

Does anyone know what will happen to "Oranje boven, oranje boven, leve de koningin" when Beatrix abdicates and Willem-Alexander is crowned king? Was there a pre-1890 version of this song? If so, could you answer at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#A Dutch patriotic song? Aecis^Brievenbus 12:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I nominated the list article 1928 Summer Olympics medal count as featured list on Wikipedia:Featured list candidates#1928 Summer Olympics medal count. You can help by editing the article or comment to/support/oppose the nomination. Thanks, Ilse@ 16:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The featured list candidate 1928 Summer Olympics medal count has undergone some changes since its nomination. I would like to invite you to support or oppose the candidacy on Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/1928 Summer Olympics medal count. Thank you, Ilse@ 23:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I am a member of WP:Disambiguation. I came across a red link to village named Halle, in Gelderland. Given that there are several places named Halle, what would be the most preferred name of the article about this Halle? For quite some time, its link from the dismambiguation page (Halle) has been Halle, Netherlands. Today someone changed it to Halle, Kingdom of the Netherlands. Which one is the recommended way for articles such as this one? And, is this place even notable enough to eventually have an article? I will watch this page for answers. Thank you! --Tesscass (talk) 18:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I would select Halle, Netherlands as hardly any one will type in "Kingdom of", either editors or readers. Also it would have had the same name before Netherlands was a kingdom. An alternate would be Halle, Gelderland. It certainly is notable enough from my quick internet search. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The notability guidelines don't apply to cities, towns and villages. Or rather, they are by definition notable enough for Wikipedia. Perhaps so little can be said about a specific village that it might be better to incorporate it into another article, but that is another issue. As far as the naming is concerned, since this is the only Halle in the Netherlands, I think Halle, Netherlands is enough, with Halle, Gelderland as a redirect. Aecis^Brievenbus 22:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. --Tesscass (talk) 00:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)