Talk:History of the Jews in Poland/Archive 3

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Section The Holocaust: German-occupied Poland

Section: Warsaw Ghetto and its uprising

Section: Postwar

Section: 1967–1989

By the way, I see some sign in this section (with which I'm finished!) and in some others that material may have been copied from other Wikipedia articles (or copied from here to other Wikipedia articles). Let me just drop a note here by way of reminder that material on Wikipedia is also copyrighted, by its contributors. Copying it is no problem as long as we give credit. We do this by making a note in edit summary at the time the material is moved giving a direct link to the original article and also making a note at the source of the split, so as to help avoid accidentally deleting the article (not likely to happen with stuff this important). See Help:Merge or Wikipedia:Split for more details. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, this should be done though I haven't done any intra Wiki citing.radek (talk) 01:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

This was more a general heads up. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 10:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Section: Since 1989

Last section. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:27, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Warning: this section has quite a few issues, including whole paragraphs copied from older sources. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I think this may be it. I can't guarantee that I have caught everything, but I have certainly done my best. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:39, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Moonriddengirl, you did such a great job.--Jacurek (talk) 18:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Ooof that's a lot. Alright, let's get to it...radek (talk) 00:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to you both for helping with the clean up. :) At least the end is in sight. This page will be ready to archive soon, and the article will be good to go. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Except for the attribution part above, this should all be done :)!.radek (talk) 02:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The copyright cleanup on this article seems to be done, although further review to ensure that all passages have been adequately revised would certainly be welcome. Thanks to those who pitched in. :) The conversations about copyright concerns have been archived, as they grew very lengthy. They can be found in archives 2 & 3. In archive 3, they have been collapsed to prevent our infringing copyright even in talk space, since duplication from other sources did become cumulatively extensive. I'll mark this one resolved at the copyright problems board. If lingering, undiscovered or incompletely revised material is discovered, please change it directly. If more extensive issues are found, the article can always be blanked again and relisted. Let's hope not. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I've added a "ref improve" tag to the article. While parts of it are meticulously searched, there are major chunks that do not cite their sources, many of which can be found in talk archive #3. To meet WP:V, some of these sources should be evaluated for reliability and acknowledged more specifically in those uncited sections. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Moonriddengirl for all the advises, hard work and time spent here.--Jacurek (talk) 16:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I am reading Marek Jan CHodakowski book about Polish-Jewish relation. I thoght about adding some interesting info about post-war revenge on gentiles, by Jews (SOlomon Morel one notable example but there is much, much more). But then, I thought: no one would actually care about the source. No one would care about its credibility. Everyone would just jump on me with allegations of another "blood libel" and antisemitism. Or maybe wikipedia has changed a bit since I was editing it last time? Szopen (talk) 15:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Morel was probably rather a Communist, than a Jewish revenge fighter. Chodakowski is "controversial" (like many his opponents, including parts of Gross' books).Xx236 (talk) 09:35, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I would rather expect a short synthesis here. Why to keep two instances of the same text in different articles?Xx236 (talk) 09:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

This article is very long. I think they were split out with the intention of following summary style, but nobody followed through on it. Thank you, by the way, for your recent additions to the 20th Century history article. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the article is too long. Better to summarize and move details content into the existing sub articles. I've also upgraded the sidebar on Jewish Polish History.Ajh1492 (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The article is longr than it was in January 2010.Xx236 (talk) 12:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

In the intro we have this as 'one of the biggest Jewish communities in Europe', as well as the 'biggest in Europe' and then 'about three-quarters of all Jews lived in Poland' (which would make it the biggest in the world). These are inconsistencies and the facts really point to this for several centuries having been the biggest Jewish community in the world, not just in Europe. Lets establish consensus and then consistency. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The Section on Politics in Polish Territory contains this statement:

"By the end of the nineteenth century, 14% of Polish citizens were Jewish."

Is there any citation for this statement? (There is no inline citation at this point.) That number seems to be an exceptionally large percentage and helps support the 'biggest Jewish community in the world" conclusion. There are not that many communities with large Jewish communities to investigate for this purpose. -- Komowkwa (talk) 00:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

There is a question - what was "Poland" by the end of the nineteenth century.Xx236 (talk) 12:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

A diff from the start of your editing reveals that you removed some sources. Please explain.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Can you please provide more specifics? To my knowledge, I have not removed any references, just the opposite. I rescued from oblivion countless references using Internet Archive and added many new ones via Google Books. I also moved some paragraphs around for progression and clarity of meaning, so if you're unsure where the selected old references are please use "Edit > Find on this Page" or equivalent feature of your browser. This is where a second set of eyes could come in handy. Cheers. — Stawiski (talk) 02:49, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Is this ref in the current version:

István Deák, Jan Tomasz Gross, Tony Judt. The Politics of Retribution in Europe. Princeton University Press, 2000.

--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Yes the ref is still there. You can find it under # 114. linked from section The Holocaust: German-occupied Poland, preformatted as <ref name=Gross1>István Deák, Jan Tomasz Gross, Tony Judt. [http://books.google.com/books?id=s82F2H0FEHQC&pg=PA25 The Politics of Retribution in Europe.] Princeton University Press, 2000.</ref> Thanks. — Stawiski (talk) 03:12, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

okay thanks. unless someone else does it first, the changes will have to be confirmed as neutrally acceptable. There unfortunatly has been some nationalistic whitewashing in the past at these article.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:19, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

It is pity to say, but a part of the texts edited by people from oversees about some aspects of Polish history, especially in chapters ‘Growing anti-Semitism’, ‘Fight for independence and Polish Jews’ and other, those about more recent history, is very poor quality. It is biased in proportion, poor evidences, repetitions, interpretations and above all: generalizations. Some theses there are supported by evidences from biased American press (what did they do themselves during holocaust?), and reactions of public opinion that was afraid of their own anti-Semitism or lated felt guilt. I do not know your motivations. Some people’s parents experienced various (usually minor) incidents in schools in Poland, before the war, some of them met bad or just terrified Poles during occupation, others’ parents agreed to help in extermination of their own Jewish brothers or helped in extermination of Poles by Soviets or Germans; some of them felt guilt, because their families spent war in USA and did not react to the holocaust. Finally, some people are ignorant and they support Soviet or Nazi discourse because of lack of education. Do you analyze the history of anti-Semitism in America this way? Can it be called chauvinism or racism? Generally collective memory shaped this way is sometimes not better than that represented by Stalinist or Nazi historians. Good luck in personal growing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.170.4.111 (talk) 08:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

"Some theses there are supported by evidences from biased American press (what did they do themselves during holocaust?), and reactions of public opinion that was afraid of their own anti-Semitism or lated felt guilt. "

what american or british newspapers did or did not do during the war is of little relevance to their value as historical sources. Ricardianman (talk) 21:04, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

"In the mid-nineteenth century, the Polish Kingdom was established in dozens of Jewish agricultural colonies of various types of land ownership. According to official data, in 1848 in the Polish Kingdom the number of Jews involved in the cultivation of the soil amounted to 30,795 persons. In the years 1844-1950 there were more than 56 Jewish colonies, with a total capacity of about 570 farms. In subsequent years, the number of colonies has grown rapidly, and most of them survived until World War II."

"From the data compiled on the basis of population census conducted in 1931 shows that in Poland, lived with the work on the role of 135 thousand. Jews. More than 98 thousand. People in this group was included in the economically active, which in terms of indicator accounted for about 75%. This was an extremely high rate of economically active in the general population in this group. A large number of Jews in general, farms in Galicia, had its beginnings in the early years of the nineteenth century. As is known, the area to the First World War were under Austrian rule, where the case for Jewish rights, including the right to settle on the land, are preferably resolved than elsewhere."

"Jews in interwar Poland, formed the most numerous non-Christian religious association, organized in 818 municipalities of the religious clerics who are about 1600 full time municipalities. The first exclusively on normative grounds of the former Kingdom of Poland, was the decree of the Head of State on February 7, 1919.: "The changes in the organization of Jewish communities in the former Polish Kingdom" [Journal of the Polish State's Rights of 1919., No. 14, item. 175]. This was not an entirely new act, but this amendment to the Regulation of German occupation authorities in 1916. Issued in the years 1925-1927 the government acts have extended the power of the Chief of State of the decree on the remaining provinces. On 5 a flower 1928. announced consolidated text of the Act dealing with the regime of Jewish communities in Poland, excluding the province of Silesia. Law supplemented by two implementing regulations, the Minister of Religious Affairs and Public Education on October 24, 1930

According to the Act of April 5, 1928., All Jews (used indicator of religion), the inhabitants of the Republic of Religious Association formed, made up of religious communities, the Council of Religious in the lead. Institution Religious Council, which was to be, like other religions, the chief representative body of the Jewish community in Poland, however, was not brought to life. Individual municipalities have the nature of the corporation (have legal personality) of a public - legal and municipal powers have been limited to only religious tasks, in particular, to: organize and maintain the rabbinate, the establishment and maintenance of synagogues, prayer houses, ritual baths and cemeteries, sleep over the religious upbringing of young people and provide care for kosher meat. Besides, the municipality was entitled to deal with the charitable assistance to the poor Jews, the management of foundations, whose purpose was to help charities and setting upSupervision over the Jewish communities of conviction held the Minister of Religious Affairs and Public Education, and called. the second instance - the governor. Direct supervision of confessional communities held a local district governor. In interwar Poland the right to treat the Jews as a religious group, completely ignoring the ethnic dimension - members of the community (by way of forced) were all residents of the Jewish faith. Jews created by the legislation as a whole "religious society" of public law, which consisted of religious communities. Powers of municipalities were at the same time severely limited, while the developed country with strong supervision."

"Accurate data on how many Jews live in Poland today, there is probably no. The last Polish census showed a bit more than a thousand Jews. This is an underestimate. It stemmed from the fact that most Jews who remained in Poland, it is considered in terms of culture for the nationality of the Poles, and so declared the census interviewers. How can we expect from them, that they have used racial criteria to each other, and the poll did not ask about religion or their ancestors, but of national self-identification. So first I'll give you some numbers. Well, according to the "state ownership" of Jewish organizations from four to six thousand people are connected - close or loosely - with organizations, religious congregations or Jewish communities. According to my estimates - live in Poland at least twice as many people who are Jews in the sense of religious law, that is, to a Jewish mother, and from these or other reasons, deviated from Judaism. This applies, for example, people who were hiding during the occupation, "the Aryan papier"."After World War II, this system is no longer in force. All Jews were given the right to determine by themselves their nationality. Also in the identification documents. They could belong to religious communities or not, to join the Jewish organizations, or to avoid them. Some have not returned to their Jewish names and Jewish communities, sometimes even their children were not aware that their parents were born as Jews. It was their choice. There are families in which this situation continues today. How big is this phenomenon? Here, there are only estimates. There are reasonable grounds to believe that the continuation of Jewish snap a family involves at least ten thousand people. But even if we take all the Jews in Poland, including the present - including those who have abandoned Judaism - it is only about 0.5 percent. the number of Jews in prewar Poland, however, was not always an indication back to the "practiced" Jewishness. Before the war, all Jews,

Not always, however, this meant back to the "practiced" Jewishness. Before the war, all Jews who did not officially convert to another faith, they were registered with the administrative order in the Jewish communities, regardless of whether they believed and practiced, or retain only loose ties with the faith of our forefathers and Jewish communities, or were completely polonized. It was a mandatory registration scheme of the Jews by the state. Accounted for on the one hand some form of cultural and religious autonomy, but on the other also a form of their "stamp". It later resulted in unintentional fatal consequences, because it facilitated the precise pickup in the German occupation and closure of the Jews in ghettos and later on the death bed."

WP:RS missing. — Matalea (talk) 19:00, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I've taken a second look at the above copy. It is a machine translation of several paragraphs from pl:Historia Żydów w Polsce in Wikipedia. I just compared a sentence from the opening paragraph (above) with its Polish original (below). However, in Polish Wiki, the whole paragraph is tagged with a missing source [potrzebne źródło], and so are others:

1. In the years 1844-1950 there were more than 56 Jewish colonies, with a total capacity of about 570 farms.
2. W latach 1844-50 istniało ponad 56 kolonii żydowskich, o ogólnej liczbie około 570 gospodarstw rolnych.

— Matalea (talk) 05:42, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

This article needs more sources, not more unreferenced text, particularly poor quality machine translation. I support your reverts. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Shimon Peres (born Szymon Perski on 2 August 1923) left Poland with his family in 1934 at the age of eleven. He's 88 now. – When I see a blanket revert with a false edit summary, I know that something's up. Other pictures of world-famous Polish-born Jews were also removed in that revert. Why? Because article on H-bomb designer, is the user's pet project, so he's got to go in first above everybody else in the infobox. It doesn't matter whether the layout looks bad. — A. Kupicki (talk) 17:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I have redirected the para to the main article on the subject, as the previous one was creating a large and dubious POVFORK.--Galassi (talk) 20:44, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

It seems designed to minimize the reality of anti-semitism, and to falsely blame the increase in antisemitism on Jewish 'reversal of assimilation'. To the extent the latter happened, it was a response to antisemitism.

There is also confusion between assimilation and acculturation. Regarding the language question - according to Mendelsohn, there was steady growth in the use of the Polish language by Jews throughout the interwar period, and corresponding decrease in the use of Yiddish. The increase in "non polish speakers" in the census, was, IIRC, due to the Zionist campaign to have Jews claim Hebrew as their mother tongue, to show Zionist affiliation. Most of those who did so were Polish speakers - certainly NONE had Hebrew as a mother tongue!! They thus were and continued to be acculturated. They may have not been assimilated - in that they did not identify as Poles by nationality - but then they mostly did not do so earlier either.

In any case, there was significant antisemitism in the Polish state and society before the 1931 census. Even after the Pilsudski coup.

I will wait till I have access to my copy of Mendelsohn, with the citations, before I edit this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardianman (talk • contribs) 16:56, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Similar problem with section on Russian Empire (1795–1918)

There's evidence of significant anti-Polish sentiment among some Jewish communities on Polish territories before Poland's return to independence, apparently missing in this article. For example, the book by Jewish writer Bernard Singer from Warsaw, called Moje Nalewki (1959; 2nd ed., 1993, ISBN 83-07-02338-6), quoted also in a book by Krzysztof Lewalski (Kościoły chrześcijańskie, 2002, ISBN 8322921950), mentioned Hassidic students "spitting at the sound of Polish language". This was coupled with the corresponding attitude of some Talmudic teachers proclaiming in public that speaking Polish was detrimental to one's religious practices.[39] [40] [41] — Stawiski (talk) 21:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

=that was almost certainly applied equally to ALL "gentile" languages, AND to Hebrew as well - anything other than Yiddish. It hardly represents a specifically anti-Polish attitude. ESPECIALLY if the citation (which I CANNOT read, I am an American and this is an English language wikipedia article) refers to incidents that occured at a time and place when Polish was not the language of state where those Jews resided. Does a Jew speaking Polish in Lvov in 1925 indicate an anti-ukrainian attitude? Does a Jew speaking Polish (or, for that matter, Yiddish) in Vilna/Wilno/Vilnius in 1925 indicate an anti-lithuanian attitude? Your very comment is an example of just the kind of misleading, out of context citation that mars this article, I am sorry to have to say. Ricardianman (talk) 20:57, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

To expand - its not an anti-Polish attitude, its an antiassimilationist, antimodernist attitude. During the period of the inter war Polish Republic, it was A. On the decline and B. directed heavily against secular Jewish nationalists, of both the Zionist and Bundist/folkist (secular Yiddishist) varieties. Again, there is much in Mendelsohn on this, but I do not now have the source handy. Ricardianman (talk) 21:00, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Note: the following comment added by sockpuppet of master Turmerick (talk · contribs) indefinitely blocked for his racist remarks. More info at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Maryester.

The Singer source is a fraud! He wrote and believes the opposite. Also this is referring to a minor event the reverse of which (antisemitism) happened ubiquitously and daily and that is what all real sources including Singer goes without saying knows. The POPE from Poland without reservations including referring to Polish Catholics called antisemitism tho WORST yes THE WORST 'racism' as he put it of the past 3 centuries. Judaism does not explicitly curse Christianity because all references to the Christians were edited out by Justinian I in 521, and the ones that remained were edited out between 10-13 century censorship of Jewish works, and besides the lies you were taught and exist in books an wikipedia on the ground the Jews were in fact nearly powerless, with all sides having their tricks against them, and straighter paths to unjust kings than them. I can tell you that spitting for any reason other than health is anathema to Jewish law, there is no doubt of this. The righteous among the Polish Catholics refer to anti-semitism as racism which it IS, because of the daily devotional Polish Catholics had calling Jews 'that despicable race' which brave, holy, Catholics fought hard to remove. Over a dozen actual witnesses not Soros' goons that control wikipedia and the european Jewish congress, have attested directly following the holocaust that (likely because they were much poorer) the Polish were more outwardly brutal and verbally antisemitic than the Germans. But far less so than the magyars and the Ukranians and Slovakians far far less so.Oceanyam (talk) 18:33, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm having great difficulty understanding what it is you're saying.VolunteerMarek 18:57, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Battleground WP:SOAP from sock master Turmerick (talk · contribs) indefinitely blocked for his racist remarks, has been removed hereof per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Maryester. Page moved to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Turmerick (Correct master). Poeticbent talk 18:30, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

This revert comment [42] "(r/m extreme example of prejudice falsely attributed to Snyder, based on a single provocative remark quoted by him from Gross without actual source or historical research to confirm anything)" is very puzzling, as I am citing an article written by Timothy Snyder. Please explain.

Anyway, New York Review of Books and Timothy Snyder are both quite reputable, I don't see a justification for wholesale revert here. Did you actually read the article that I referenced? JustSomePics (talk) 19:54, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

• The proper use of external sources is a learned skill. Please note, Snyder did not make the claim you attributed to him, so be careful next time. Snyder wrote in a single sentence at the end of paragraph 9 on the second page of his article, that the claim originated from (quote) "Gross, along with Jan Grabowski and Barbara Engelking". No source of the statement is given. Even though, there are references listed at the end of his article; most notably, Snyder did not include (quote) "Gross, along with Jan Grabowski and Barbara Engelking" among them. In the next paragraph of Snyder's article, there is a note indexed to a very controversial Neighbors by Jan Gross. – That's not enough for our purposes. Many reputable historians openly disagree with Gross' assertions published over a decade earlier, long before the conclussion of the IPN investigation in Jedwabne. See WP:REDFLAG for further guidance regarding multiple high-quality sources necessary for such exceptional claims. Please do not edit-war. Poeticbent talk 20:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Link to copyrighted article by Timothy Snyder at The New York Review of Books (do not copy-paste): http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/dec/20/hitlers-logical-holocaust/?page=1

I think this is fairly clear, and you are nitpicking. I would like this information to find its way into the article, as Snyder is crystal clear on this point. JustSomePics (talk) 20:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and the publications by Grabowski and Engelking referred to here are listed at the beginning of the review:

Jest taki piękny, słoneczny dzień: Losy Żydów szukających ratunku na wsi polskiej 1942–1945 [It Is Such a Beautiful, Sunny Day…The Fate of Jews Seeking Rescue in the Polish Countryside 1942–1945] by Barbara Engelking Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów, 292 pp., zł39.99

Judenjagd: Polowanie na Żydów 1942–1945. Studium dziejów pewnego powiatu [Hunt for the Jews 1942–1945: A Study of the History of a Certain County] by Jan Grabowski Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów, 262 pp., zł37.99 — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustSomePics (talk • contribs) 20:52, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

• Sorry to say that, JustSomePics, you did not address any of my valid concerns and are stuck on Snyder's figure of speech. Please provide reliable third-party sources devoted to actual facts, and stop beating around the bush. Poeticbent talk 21:10, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Another revert [43] claiming that Timothy Snyder is an unreliable author. Oh well, I am done here.

Overall I am disappointed that this article seems to be watched by editors who are psychologically unable to accept the new findings of Polish scholars looking into this issue honestly for the first time since the war. Oh well, maybe in a few years the situation will improve. I am done here. JustSomePics (talk) 21:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

• Please refrain from personal attacks. I do not deserve to be insulted by claims of being psychologically unable to do anything. There are people who benefit financially from hate-mongering including in Poland. However, that is not what we do around here. Thanks. See WP:SOAP for more. Poeticbent talk 22:39, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I was going to end this discussion here, but your removal of valid information is not acceptable.Per Wikipedia:Fair_use#Acceptable_use, brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea.

In light of this, I am going to restore the key sentences that Timothy Snyder uses in his artile in the Dec. 20, 2012 issue of the NY Review of Books: link (emphasis added by me)

But what of the quarter-million or so Polish Jews who somehow escaped the gassing, and who sought help among Poles in 1943, 1944, and 1945?Gross, along with Jan Grabowski and Barbara Engelking, records the undeniable fact that most of these people were murdered as well, perhaps half of them by  Poles  (following German policy and law) rather than by Germans.

Timothy Snyder is at present one of the most reputable historians of Eastern Europe in the 20th century, and his conclusion here derived from his reading of the work of Gross, Grabowski and Engelking is highly significant. I believe it should be included in the article. Unless you are suggesting that Timonthy Snyder is not a credible historian. Are you? JustSomePics (talk) 23:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Snyder lost my credibility at the moment I've seen him discussing "joint German and Polish invasion of the Soviet Union." May be he is a reputable hgistorian in his own research, but the quote in question is his alleged summarizing someone else's research, and with strong words like "undeniably". Unless we can verify how this "undeniable" claim was substantiated, this quitation has undue weight. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

But in the article Snyder mentions "joint German and Polish invasion of the Soviet Union" as something Hitler hoped for, not something that actually happened (because Poland refused). I don't see that as controversial. Please clarify.JustSomePics (talk) 00:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Please provide references for this, and it will be an interesting update for German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact article. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Happy to oblige. From Adam Tooze's The Wages of Destruction, pp. 304 Ribbentrop's ambition has been to combine the liquidation of Czechoslovakia with an effort to enrol Poland as Germany's ally. ... By the spring of 1939, Ribbentrop has been able to achieve none of these objectives. Poland warded off Germany's initial advances and even had the temerity to improve its relations with the Soviet Union.

Thank you. ...But where is "Polish invasion of the Soviet Union"? Also, there is a strong opinion that Hitler's was just political games with Poland, with no real intention; the latter ones was elimination and enslaving of Slavic Untermenschen. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, what else would the German-Polish alliance be for exactly? I hope your point about Snyder's credibility has been addressed here. JustSomePics (talk) 17:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

As per "undue weight" this policy is to prevent magnifying the importance of views from marginal sources. But Snyder is not marginal, he is currently one of the most respected historians of Eastern Europe. His conclusion has weight. JustSomePics (talk) 00:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

"Undue weight" is also about statements whicvh pop out as a sore in the eye. There is an article, Holocaust in Poland, well balanced, with factual information and arguments, not just a shouting "Poles were murderers". Staszek Lem (talk) 17:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

As I mentioned, he may well be respected for his own research, so show me please what research on Holocaust inn Poland he carried out, and I will gladly cite it. I am against citing someone else about words of someone else, through "Chinese whispers", without possibility to verify. The claim that Poles killed half of the remaining Jews is not to be take lightly. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Surely you must be aware he wrote a magisterial work on genocide in Eastern Europe in the Twentieth Century, Bloodlands, which discusses the Holocaust in Poland at great length.JustSomePics (talk) 04:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Snyder is a history professor at Yale, and his review was published in a source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Can anybody point to another part of WP:V that might indicate why this book review is not a reliable source?

Nevertheless, we may want to wait a few weeks before adding this information to the article. Why? Because The New York Review of Books is notorious for the debates that take place in its "Letters" section, and we may want to wait and see whether this review sparks a debate and if any additional information comes to light. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Good idea to wait for letters, they could indeed add more information. JustSomePics (talk) 16:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, more information (rather than standalone accusations) is good idea. In particular the strong claim about Poles killing half Jews requies strong verification. At the same time, please keep in mind that the main article on the issue is Holocaust in Poland, and the bulk of information must go there. Per Wikipedia:Summary style, the general article History of the Jews in Poland has a section about Holocaust in Ploand, which should be a summary of the artile labeled as "main" for it. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Sounds perfectly reasonable. But you reverted me after I added one sentence to this article. Is one sentence on this subject here too much? JustSomePics (talk) 18:52, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Of which part of the 'Holocaust in Poland' article does this long quote constitute a summary? Staszek Lem (talk) 19:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Please also keep in mind that the phrase "murdered by Poles" is racist slur. The correct phrasing would be "Polish collaborators". Also, I am sure your dear professor Snyder lumper uder "Poles" the Ukrainian nationalists, for which killing Jews was even more fun than killing Poles. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

That it's a slur is just your opinion. I can see how you might not like it, but referring to Poles, Germans or French having done this or that is pretty standard among historians. (You could easily find thousands of examples, but this time I will not look for them for you, please use Google Books (start here)) Anyway, in this particular case some of the murders would be carried out by Polish partisan units, and it's nonsensical to call them German collaborators. JustSomePics (talk) 18:44, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

That it's a slur is not just my opinion. To accuse the whole ethnos is racism. (read some wikipedia, colleague). I know, "ad hitlerum" is bad argument, but to put a blame on the whole ethnos is what Hitler did. And "pretty standard among historians" does not make it sound not racism: it is just these historians don't give a shit. These same "historians" happily wrote about "Polish death camps". If you don't like the term "Polish collaborators", you could have used "collaborators and antisemites", but no, you want to willify Poles. Sorry, no pasaran. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Fine, if it bothers you that much, I am willing to compromise. How would you rephrase the sentence that you reverted? JustSomePics (talk) 19:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

First of all, like someone else said, strong claims require strong evidence. The first step is to describe the evidence that half of Jews were killed by Poles in article "Holocaust in Poland". The evidence must not be a hearsay, but from the immediate secondary sources, so that it can be verified against bias in phrasing and factual accuracy. Second, what bothers me more is that it does not bother a fellow wikipedian. Certainly you are aware that Polish-Jewish issue is touchy. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe Snyder's article counts as just that source. Where do you see "hearsay" anywhere? Scholars often rely on analyzing and combining the work of other scholars to reach their conclusion. This is how historical research works.

Anyway, you did read the article, I hope? Snyder describes a number of mechanism which would have resulted in some Poles participating in the murder of Jews (I hope the way I phrased it here is not a slur from your viewpoint, please let me know if not). So nobody is questioning that such murders must have occurred, the only question is about numbers involved. Snyder proposes what is in his judgement the best estimate at present, derived from recent research by reputable Polish scholars. Do you have some other number (backed by research) that you would like to propose instead?

Did you read my argument in full, I hope? I have nothing to add. I explained my opinion how it is to be done in a wikipedian, rather than sensationalist way. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:15, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Pardon me but I do not see why there must be anything "touchy" about discussing Polish-Jewish issues these days. The facts are pretty much all on the table now and they are not disputed. The fact that some Poles played a part in the Holocaust may have been shocking before the year 2000, it is pretty much accepted now among scholars.JustSomePics (talk) 19:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, such things are inherently irrational. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:15, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to make a reference in the article to this flag. Any thoughts? Shikku27316 (talk) 02:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

OK, so this link is now only a redirect to the English translation (which is not even an only English translation, actually "Fighting Organziation" is far more common), while the other Polish resistance organizations are practically all referred to by their Polish names (Armia Krajowa, Gwardia Ludowa, Bataliony Chłopskie, etc etc). What do you say to rename it to Polish? --Niemti (talk) 01:18, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Ugh. Last thing I want is to get into some kind of stupid internet dispute over stuff like this [44]. So let me just point out that this is an article about the History of Jews in Poland, not about current Polish politics. By that fact alone the info under dispute runs afoul of WP:UNDUE and has no place in the article.

More generally, the problem is that this info was inappropriately added by User:ScottyNolan in August [45]. Again, it doesn't belong here because it's undue, it does not fall under the scope of this topic, because of WP:NOTNEWS, and because it's a textbook example of "outdated recentism" of Wikipedia. The whole issue has gone to the Constitutional Court, it has to do with straightening out old laws inherited from Communist times and is really just a whole bunch of miniutea. Now. After User:ScottyNolan put this inappropriate text in the article, nobody noticed until some racist asshole [46] made some obnoxious remarks on talk about it (WHY isn't that guy banned yet??? Where are the admins???). But just because some idiot says some idiotic things does mean that we should include text which is contrary to Wikipedia guidelines.

Again. This is an article about the History of Jews in Poland. Keep it that way. If you want to get into some kind of pointless internet argument about this particular law/regulation then that belongs in some other article (hopefully not). And it is true, as User:Poeticbent points out in his edit summary that this is really a spat between some animal rights activists (hence the reason why the law was passed with votes from all the left wing parties) and Polish farmers who tried to enter the export market for halal/kosher food.

Removing as undue. Volunteer Marek  07:52, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. Just because it is recent doesn't mean it doesn't belong on the page. It was put in the appropriate section and is a big issue in Poland and Europe in general. I do not see how this is "undue" and, though it happened recently, it is not just "news". I don't see a need to wait a year or however long just so it becomes "history" or "WP:NOTNEWS". EvergreenFir (talk) 17:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

No, it's recentism and honestly just silly, and about Muslisms too (and yes, there are Muslims in Poland). --Niemti (talk) 18:36, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits have been framed as "Poles" and "Jews". This, however, is imprecise as the Jews in Poland are Poles. They are Jewish Poles. I do not wish to edit war with the IP user, but it is simply incorrect to frame this as Poles vs. Jews. What do others think? EvergreenFir (talk) 15:12, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

You're correct about this. Just like Americans "at large" and Jewish Americans (whenever specified) the proper term is Poles and Jewish Poles (in context), etc. The separation was the basis for World War II ghettos and the subsequent extermination program known as Final Solution, that's why the subject is so incredibly sensitive. Coversely, the term non-Jewish Americans (as oppose to Jewish Americans) would have probably sounded superficial anywhere outside the Jewish history in the New World. We're walking a fine line here, Poeticbent talk 17:50, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

There were (and are) many Jews who were completely assimilated and even Catholic, or atheist, just more or less ethnically Jewish, but thinking about themselves as Poles. --Niemti (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2013 (UTC)--Niemti (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Poles and Jews are two separate ethnic groups. They are exclusive, ethnic Poles are Poles, ethnic Jews are Jews. The Wiki page Ghettos in Nazi-occupied Europe clearly say Pole and Jew as separate - because they are. This article and others about Poland and the treatment of both ethnic Poles and ethnic Jews are not to discuss with Jews with Polish citizenship are Poles or not.

One even source for some text in this article is Contested Memories: Poles and Jews During the Holocaust and Its Aftermath. There is no other mention in this article that use the text "non-Jewish Poles and Jewish Poles" before the input regarding the ghettos. Could easily link Poles to show that it is talking about the ethnic group Poles.

We shall continue to discuss here to avoid tendentious editing or a conflict.--212.118.232.250 (talk) 11:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I have blocked the IP range as these edits are coming from blocked user:English Patriot Man. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:12, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for providing (partly mangled) link to File:M.Lwów-Polska spis powszechny 1931.pdf in the edit summary. Obviously this is not the source for the new linguistic map, because the scope of the document is limited to just one city. The map was produced using other means which are not being disclosed. Why? Poeticbent talk 18:52, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing he means that the Spis Powszechny is the source, and just linked to the one for Lwow because that one is available online. Volunteer Marek  19:24, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Offensive suggestions. Map is based on census in all voivodeship in Poland in 1931, Lwów i added for example that census included Hebrew language. Mathiasrex (talk) 10:30, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if you took these questions as an offense, Mathiasrex. This was certainly not the intention. Please add working links in file description to whatever images and webpages you used (as requested in Commons). Don't write that the author is "self", because maps are not snap-shots and contain information published somewhere. The problem is, you seem to be consistently avoiding simply putting everything on the table. — There was a discussion in Polish Wikipedia already (mentioned here) regarding one of the sources you stated which contained disputed and inaccurate data, i.e. User:Mix321 in your file description. Poeticbent talk 17:43, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is a convenience link to the image being discussed: File:Hebrew and Yiddish language frequency in Poland in 1931 1.PNG -- Diannaa (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

It and a couple other similar maps are quite interesting. But I do agree that the sourcing of the data behind the maps have to be "squeeky-clean". I'd like to pull the data for Bialystok Voivodeship and generate the detail by language (Polish, Yiddish/Hebrew, Belorussian and Lithuanian.  :) Ajh1492 (talk) 19:44, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Someone in Poland has pissed on his own shoe, and maybe the shoe was made by Naot so let's call it an antisemitic incident because the term antisemitism has the greatest fortitude. Korwin-Mikke didn't mention Jews. He said prisoners of Auschwitz had steady jobs and therefore should have been pleased. If he actually said that, he needs medical attention. However, Wikipedia is not a place for reporting such emergencies. Poeticbent talk 00:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

First, I would like to thank Poticbent for his comments- they sure had showed me some points of view I didn't think of. But: If one shutters gravestones at a Jewish cemetery- It's antisemitism. If a graffiti painting says "Jews out" and there is a pretty swastika around- It's antisemitism. And if a honorable known website publishes results of survey that deals with antisemitism in Poland- You don’t dismiss it by saying "not sure if this is a reliable source". At least check it before. For your information: the Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism is a recognized institute that monitors anti-Semitic incidents around the world. It's also publishing statistics and articles written by familiar and honorable authors. Members of the forum are: the Education and Foreign Ministries of Israel, the Prime Minister's Office/Information Centre and Government Secretariat, the Jewish Agency, ADL, and so on (the full list appears in their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CFCA-The-Coordination-Forum-for-Countering-Antisemitism/173603766600?id=173603766600&sk=info)I agree with some of your points. But I don't think that you (poticbent and Volunteer Marek) should have erased all of the edits. Especially when the source is a reliable study.ScottyNolan (talk) 14:57, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I found three sources in English for the number of Jews in Poland.

1. BBC News: 20,000
2. World Jewish Congress: 5,000–20,000
3. Fox News: 25,000

The figure of 80,000 is not found in either of the sources currently cited, which state 12,000 and 8,000–10,000. – Diannaa (talk) 13:21, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is currently worth to put Benoit Mandelbrot instead of Marcel Reich-Ranicki in the collage. There are already two mathematicians: Stanislaw Ulam and Alfred Tarski which are more related to Poland that Mandelbrot. Mandelbrot left Poland as a child, therefore I think, since we have several persons to choose, the other candidates are better suited for this collage. I don't insist strongly on keeping Reich-Ranicki, he was the "Pope of Literature" in Germany (he appeared almost every week on German TV). But one more mathematician is too much. --Off-shell (talk) 12:22, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense, I agree. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 21:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I came here from another article which referred to someone as being of "Polish-Jewish" descent. I guess I understand the hyphenization - it is rampant in English. But this article also has "the tensions between ethnic Poles and Jews". --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 17:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Polish Jews
יהדות פולין
Polscy Żydzi

Moses Isserles Baal Shem Tov Stanisław Lem Arthur Rubinstein Janusz Korczak Berek Joselewicz David Ben-Gurion Yisrael Meir Lau Stanisław Ulam Julian Tuwim Roman Polanski Shimon Peres Alfred Tarski Helena Rubinstein L. L. Zamenhof
Regions with significant populations
Poland	80,000+ (~12,000 in registered communities)
Israel	1,250,000 (ancestry, passport eligible); 202,300 (citizenship)
Languages
Hebrew, Polish, Yiddish
Religion
Judaism
Related ethnic groups
Other Ashkenazi Jews: Lithuanian Jews, Russian Jews, Ukrainian Jews, German Jews, also Sephardi.

I would like to discuss the issue of images in the info box.

I would like to present this version of the collage. It consists of ethnic Polish Jews and were born and worked on the Polish territory. Also include notables from the modern society like Shimon Peres and Yisrael Meir Lau, both born in Poland and now serve as important politicians or at least political figures of the Israeli society. Also include a famous Jewish mystic preacher and religious leader Baal Shem Tov instead of an unknown actress who did not even live or work on the Polish territory and was well known elsewhere, in Italy perhaps.

All new chosen people were born and lived the first 10 years in Congress Poland or the Second Polish Republic. The current strucutre present, including figures that no one has heard of and did not even participate or represent the Polish state, like Savielly Tartakower for example, should not be included as they did not even obtain Polish citizenship.

If you have any questions then please ask. Oliszydlowski (TALK) 9:13 am, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

• Correction, re. Ksawery Tartakower: "in 1918 he accepted Polish citizenship and became one of the most prominent honorary ambassadors of Poland abroad..." Enough said I think. Source: Radosław Leniarski, Paweł Kerntopf (September 21, 2009). "Szachy ze swastyką (Chess-game against Swastika)". Gazeta Wyborcza. Retrieved July 24, 2011. (Polish)

A basic idea for this collage and such collages on other similar pages is to maintain diversity in different senses, i.e. in terms of different fields of activity, men/women, different historical periods etc. So having David Ben-Gurion, it is probably not necessary to include Shimon Peres, if there are persons in other fields which are worth showing.

Similarly Moses Isserles is a rabbi. Why should there be more rabbis in the collage like Yisrael Meir Lau or Baal Shem Tov? One can argue that Baal Shem Tov was an extremely important figure in Jewish history, but it is also possible to include his picture in the text where he is mentioned. This was in fact the case with Baal Shem Tov - the image was shown further down. However I removed that image, because according to the description, this is not a picture of Baal Shem Tov but of Baal Shem from London. For this reason this picture is not shown on the page Baal Shem Tov. So having a picture, we could further discuss where it should be placed, but there is no such picture, as far as I know.

In addition, removing Rosa Raisa and Zivia Lubetkin one would reduce the female fraction to just one person out of 15. Is it a fair representation of Polish Jewish people - one woman and 14 men?

Concerning Tartakover, one tries to include some sportsman in such collages (also for the sake of diversity), and quite many outstanding chess masters were/are of Jewish descent. A better alternative could be Akiba Rubinstein.

If someone from the current collage should be replaced, I would consider Alfred Tarski first. He was mainly mathematician, but there is also Stanisław Ulam. --Off-shell (talk) 23:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)