Talk:Cat/Archive 14

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Big cats a thing of the past?

Latest comment: 4 years ago19 comments7 people in discussion

The big cats have been removed from the entire lede. Not very encyclopedic. Would like to suggest a mention in the first paragraph of the big cats, with appropriate links to Big cat, tiger, and lion. Doesn't have to be long, but at least mentioning and linking to them, probably aftert the sentence which ends "of the family...". Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:12, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

THIS page is about the domestic cat. But none of the big cats is domestic. I think, we had this discussion already. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:24, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Then it should be named domestic cat, where I threw in with trying to avoid that in the previous discussion. Because a tiger is a cat, a lion is a cat, etc., and by saying that the word 'Cat' means only 'domestic cat' has Wikipedia changing the meaning of the word. I'll add a few links to balance it out, and that should cover the topic. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:11, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Which of these is how you would describe this image??

https://natgeo.imgix.net/factsheets/thumbnails/siberian-tiger-and-house-cat.jpg?auto=compress,format&w=1024&h=560&fit=crop

The animal on the left is a cat; the animal on the right is a tiger.
The animal on the left is a domestic cat; the animal on the right is a cat.

Which of these descriptions do you think most people should use?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

This discussion has been had before. This article is about the domestic cat, which in the vernacular is referred to as the cat. No one talks about having a domestic cat as a pet. Wikipedia policy prefers common names for article titles. Either way, big cats are not especially relevant to the article topic and are covered by saying cats belong to the family Felidae.

There is an issue with the phrase "The cat is either a house cat or a farm cat, which are pets, or a feral cat ..." in opening paragraph. Are farm cats considered pets or working cats? Most pet cats are not house cats, which usually refers to pet cats that are kept indoors, but dictionaries seem to differ on this. Jts1882 | talk 07:47, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that a farm cat is considered a working cat. But it is not a pet either. I'll reformulate this sentence; please change as you deem fit. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:35, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

A farm cat is considered both a working cat and a pet.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 09:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

They are beloved "pets" to many. They just happen to have an active hunting range. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:46, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Very few people know what 'Felide' means (let alone how to spell it without looking at it). Leaving just one tiny link in the sentence, just big cats, not only allows understanding but gives another article besides Cat and Felidae (I looked above how to spell it) to cover the entire subject (emphasis on "entire") Cat. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:44, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

For those who don't (yet) know it, there is a link to that page!! And btw: there are 40 species of wild (ie. not domesticated) cats, no need to select just a few that YOU happen to know -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

BhagyaMani reversed my small edit of adding Big cats, an acceptable topic and stand-alone page, with the edit summary "as already mentioned in the about tag this page is NOT about the family of cats, but about the *domestic cat*" (my cyber ears are ringing from the shout). Again, as I said above, I really don't want this page named 'Domestic cat' but to leave it at 'Cat'. The very brief addition of 'Big cats' to the lede solves that problem, as it is an important stand-alone recognizably named page which includes the word 'Cat'. The template is named {{Domestic cat}}, let's not have to rename the entire page. Can someone step in and override this WP:OWN. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:44, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I've added back the big cat link to the lede due to the RM and close at list of largest cats. Several editors mentioned renaming this page to domestic cat, something I've said many times on this page I wouldn't want to see happen. But if the large cats are excluded from the lede by page-sitters I'd have to support such a move. Hopefully it can be prevented with a little more common sense and a touch less page ownership issues. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:25, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

...and reversed again. Here is the sentence in question, to which I added the last five words before the reversal: "It is the only domesticated species in the family Felidae and often referred to as the domestic cat to distinguish it from wild members of the family, such as the big cats." Common sense would say "Of course" it is good edit, as it helps build the encyclopedic knowledge of the topic and differentiates the topic 'Cat' from the larger cats. This ongoing discussion is limited so far (and "scat, shoo, go away" I keep hearing from one editor who seems to shout at me every time they communicate), but there was a larger audience at the completed RM for List of largest cats. I'll ping two of them, SMcCandlish and Ahecht, to enlarge this discussion a bit concerning the addition of the five words "such as the big cats". If a full Rfc is put up I'd be concerned that the page may be renamed Domestic cat, which I have clearly said I don't want to happen unless the big cats are inexplicably shut out from the lede paragraph (and no, the uncommon word "Felidae" doesn't work standing alone, per it being unrecognizable to even the spelling program). Randy Kryn (talk) 18:59, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

This has some up enough times in enough different exact forms and venues of debate that it's probably reasonable to want to disambiguate. While there is a hatnote these are often not noticed, and there's no harm in adding something like "such as the big cats" to the opening material. Per WP:REUSE, our article content needs to make perfect sense on its own, even in print and even when divorced from all navigation and WP:SELFREF material (including hatnotes with explicit cross-references). I have previously suggested moving this article to domestic cat, and while the RM did not meet with success at that time, quite a lot of time has passed, more concerns about ambiguity have been raised, and consensus can change. In particular, the last time I nominated this, there was pervasive misunderstanding (long since mostly corrected) mistaking WP:COMMONNAME as not only one of the WP:CRITIERIA but chief among them. It is neither; it's simply the default first choice (based mostly on the actual criterion WP:RECOGNIZABLE) to test against all of those criteria, all other applicable policies and guidelines, and common sense. I have to think there is nothing at all un-recognizable about "domestic cat", which is a very common and WP:PRECISE term, and is obviously the most common in any situation in which just "cat" by itself could be ambiguous. Today, WP fairly frequently does not have an article at literally the most common name, in various cases where doing so can lead to ambiguity and other confusion. So a re-RM may finally be in order (I would not commingle this with others, though, like dog → domestic dog because "dog" is not nearly as often used in a sense that encompasses non-domesticated species). PS: I just did a cleanup pass on the article to normalize the citation mess, etc. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:07, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like there are three separate issues here:

Should the article about domestic cats mention big cats in the lead?
Should the Cat article be about domestic cats or all cats?
Should there be a three-way Cat → Domestic cat and Felidae → Cat move?

On the first question, I can think of no legitimate reason why an article about domestic cats cannot mention big cats as a form of contrast. Adding Randy's such as the big cats is a no-brainer, completely separate from the other questions. On the second and third questions, the terms "domestic cat" and "house cat" are so commonly used and WP:RECOGNIZABLE that I think there may be a strong argument for implementing either, although I like the three-way move option from a WP:PRECISE standpoint. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 21:52, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

On #1, the criticism repeatedly raised is why single out big cats, an arbitrary and ambiguous category, and not pick out other groups of cats, small cats or medium-sized cat or small cats, lynxes or ocelots. If something is to be added it should try to list represent members of the whole family, not such big ones (e.g. "such as tiger, ocelot, lynx and cheetah").

On #3, I have no objection to using domestic cat for the article. This is the common name used for the species in scientific literature (unlike the dog where dog is used; domestic dog is rarer). House cat is a poor title as it is ambiguous. However, I think the change unnecessary as most people looking for cat would be expecting an article on domestic cats or cat breeds. If searching for the cat family, a search using cat (singlular) would be an unusual. And while cats (plural) is more likely, cat family is a far more likely search choice. As a result I'd argue cat should redirect to domestic cat if the change is made.

On another note, any one interested in big cats should fix that article. It is not usually another name for the Panthera species or the roaring cats. While it recognises wider groupings it doesn't properly reflect how big cats has been used traditionally. Jts1882 | talk 09:07, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Re Ahecht's question#1: I don't see any benefit in adding a link to a page that is completely irrelevant for the definition of this species, the domestic cat. The link to the Felidae is justified, and one to the Felinae, i.e. the small wild cats, would also be. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:37, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Re #2: at present, it IS about the domestic cat, and imo, should NOT be expanded to all the cat species. That's the purpose of the Felidae page. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:37, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Re #3: I would agree to a move of Cat > Domestic cat, if that puts a definite end to this discussion about stray links. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:37, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2020

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

In the Evolution Section, Domestication subsection, please correct this sentence:

"As there is no evidence of native mammalian fauna on Cyprus"

to

"As there is no evidence of native felids on Cyprus"

In reality there are several native mammals on Cyprus: the genet Genetta plesictoides, the dwarf hippo Phanourios or Hippopotamus minor, the Cyprus dwarf elephant Palaeoloxodon cypriotes, the spiny mouse Acomys nesiotes, and the mouse Mus cypriacus. Most are extinct now, but they absolutely were native. Cyprus also has a possibly native fox subspecies Vulpes vulpes indutus.

See this publication: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237049960_A_Late_Pleistocene_endemic_genet_Carnivora_Viverridae_from_Aghia_Napa_Cyprus for the genet and a general summary of Cypriot native mammals.

2601:441:467F:9E00:489D:D076:2E5A:72DF (talk) 00:48, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Quoting from that journal article, where a shrew and bat(s) are also mentioned, but the fox is not:

Cyprus, as an oceanic island that was separated from the mainland for a very long time, has yielded a greatly impoverished endemic fauna (Bate 1904, Boekschoten and Sondaar 1972, Reese 1995). The main element is a dwarf hippopotamus, Phanourios minor (Desmarest 1822), known from more than 30 sites on the island (Forsyth Major 1902, Bate 1906, Boekschoten and Sondaar 1972, Reese 1995, Reese in Simmons 1999: p.162). Another common endemic species is Elephas cypriotes Bate 1903, a dwarf elephant (Bate 1903b, 1905). Some scanty elephant remains of somewhat larger size than E. cypriotes may represent another endemic elephant species (Boekschoten and Sondaar 1972). Other, generally quite sparse, findings include the afore mentioned genet Genetta plesictoides, as well as some not well known small mammals: one or two species of murid rodents (Mus sp.), one or two species of bats and a soricid insectivore (Crocidura suaveolens) (Boekschoten and Sondaar 1972, Reese 1995). Endemic fossil deer, a common element in other Mediterranean insular faunas, have not been found on the island.

2601:441:467F:9E00:489D:D076:2E5A:72DF (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2020

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

remove the newline character between "contact." and "Domestic" in the first section. it has no reason being there.change the newline character to a space. Miumii2 (talk) 04:56, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Done JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:19, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

My photo edits

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I'm guessing by the edit notice that the addition of photos has been quite controversial in the past. I decided to move pictures around to make it more visually pleasing to the reader; keep in mind most people who read Wikipedia will never edit. I took away two photos/multiple photo templates because they were just hanging off the end of the page; if someone expands the article, I'd imagine they'd add the photos back. I don't intend to cause further controversy. --I dream of horses (t) (c) Remember to {{ping}} me after replying off my talk page 08:02, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2020

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Under the Hunting and Feeding section, a line reads:

"Free-fed feral cats and house cats consume several small meals in a day."

change to:

"Feral cats and Free-Fed house cats consume several small meals in a day."

"Free feeding" is a way of feeding house cats that entails leaving an unlimited supply of food available to the cat at all times. The inverse of free feeding house cats is feeding the cat large meals on a schedule. Feral cats cannot be free fed as feral cats do not have a singular source of unlimited food.

Thanks,Sam Samlachance (talk) 01:44, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Done Jack Frost (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Avoiding milk

Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Under "hunting and feeding" I found this seemingly odd statement for which no references are given: "They also avoid sweet food and milk". I'm not arguing that it's wrong, necessarily, but the notion that cats avoid milk seems to contradict common cultural stereotypes about cat behaviour and may come as a surprise to cat owners. If it's true then perhaps a reference should be provided for corroboration? Slimeypete (talk) 07:35, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't know about avoiding milk, but I think that adult cats are basically lactose intolerant - Ersonpay (talk page) 16:31, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

In my experience cats do like to drink milk, but I have also heard that they are lactose intolerant. After a quick google search, it looks like most are indeed lactose intolerant, although this vet says they can enjoy the occasional treat ^[1] Lauren061 (talk) 14:23, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Other name

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

I'm not sure why other names are not used for certain articles but are for others. A common name for cat is 'kitty' or 'kitty-cat'. Should that not be mentioned in the lead as other common names? I also addressed this in the 'Dog' article, as 'Doggy' is a common name used to refer to a dog. It is included in dictionaries. I'd appreciate some opinions here, and if there is a consensus, I will add it. Thanks. Battykin (talk) 22:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Imo, these names are not important enough to be mentioned in the lead. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 06:10, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think those are formal common names, "the name by which a species is known to the general public", more nicknames or informal names. They don't help describe what the article is about or belong in the lede. If they did, we'd have to add moggie and who knows what else. — Jts1882 | talk 06:33, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I understand why some might feel that way, but Wikipedia isn't all that formal. They use 'common spoken' terms in other articles, included in the lead. The term, 'Doggy' has been in the dictionary since the 1600s, and the term 'Kitty' since the 1700s. Both terms are common internationally. People often see a dog and say "doggy". The phrase, "Here kitty, kitty" is extremely popular as is people pointing to a cat, referring to it as a 'kitty'cat'. I am okay with not mentioning these terms, but I thought I would bring it up since I have seen other articles mention common 'other names' for a subject. Battykin (talk) 21:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

They're just diminutive/babified forms of the word. Wiktionary exists for that kind of listing imo. It's not so much about the formal name as it is about the proper name. In general, Wikipedia articles list alternative names for things when those names are the names that people actually recognise as the proper name instead of the article's primary name (especially due to regional differences, e.g. the page for elevator lists 'lift' because that's the actual name someone from the UK might use when searching for the article). Everybody recognises cat as the proper name for this animal. For some good examples, look at articles for things like drugs, which have a million and one street names (the equivalent of kitty, kitty-cat etc) but only a couple of proper names. The articles only list the names someone might actually use to search for the drug. Kookas (talk) 18:33, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Contradictory information

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

"Queens normally reach sexual maturity at 5–10 months, and males at 5–7 months. This varies depending on breed. Kittens reach puberty at the age of 9–10 months." This appears contradictory, unless I'm missing something? JBritnell (talk) 11:09, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Yep, seems that way to me too. In favour of sorting that out - to me, 9-10 months seems like a very long time with a very narrow range for it to be the start as implied; 5 months is about the time cats get spayed/neutered, which is the start of sexual maturity. Kookas (talk) 18:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Statistics

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

It would be interesting if we could have a simple table overview showing statistics about cats. For example, Ispecifically came here today to find out how many (estimated) cats, as pets ("house cats") live in total.Even a rough estimate is useful, even if it is not quite correct - right now I just don't have anynumbers. This would be best if we could have a table-overview of useful cat data in general, asa table. (I prefer a table in this case, similar to what you can see in countries on wikipedia,because that is a LOT faster than reading through lots of text.) 2A02:8388:1641:8380:3AD5:47FF:FE18:CC7F (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

There are some estimated numbers (as of 2016) in the book The Lion in the Living Room by Abigail Tucker (ISBN 978-1-4767-3823-9). AnonMoos (talk) 19:12, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

cats.txt

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

cats are natural parkour masters okay we can all agree with that well duh ._. Wildcat889meowcat1245 (talk) 05:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)cats are natural parkour masters okay we can all agree with that well duh ._.--Wildcat889meowcat1245 (talk) 05:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)george washington(1774) jk hahahahahaha

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --TheImaCow (talk) 06:46, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2020

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

64.58.251.196 (talk) 18:05, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Its a meow meow

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. -ink&fables «talk» 18:34, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Very true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maintenancecheck (talk • contribs) 04:08, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

well said! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6081:5300:6:9159:1518:3906:67CC (talk) 04:19, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2021

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

An example of a cat:Tabby Plymouth K (talk) 17:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jack Frost (talk) 05:46, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Query

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Reference 61 does not seem to support (at least directly) the rather dramatic claim in the text. It seems to ignore the issue. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:55, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Etymology and Catti

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

https://scotsblood.wordpress.com/about/the-ancient-catti-chatti-tribe/ and various other sources show that a germanic tribe, after losing a battle with the Romans, partly emigrated to the northern tip of scotland where they killed off the existing wildcat population, and their name then became synonymous with the cats, adopting their image in their emblems. Caithness and various other clan and local names have "cat" in the name. This would indicate that the Chatti or Catti tribe had something to do with the adoption of the word Cat in old english. 86.178.96.111 (talk) 15:11, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

The taxonomy section could use some expansion and clarification.

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I'm not even close to being well-versed in biology, so I'm not touching it with a ten-foot pole. But the whole section abruptly ends with a statement that cats were recently reclassified as a separate species by an IUCN task force--based on someone else's recommendation--with no discussion of what factors led to that reclassification. This is especially jarring since the section does mention genetic evidence that cats are a subspecies of F. sylvestris, which seems to have been influential as recently as 2007.

From a lay reader's perspective, it looks similar to the situation with dogs, in that the domestic variety has flip-flopped over the years between species and subspecies, but dogs appear to have basically settled around being a subspecies of wolf for now, primarily based on genetic evidence. Does this just mean that domestic animals are really hard to classify and there isn't any real consensus either way? Are their social factors within biology that account for the difference--maybe dog scientists weigh genetics more heavily that cat scientists, for example? Has there been a breakthrough in cat genetics since 2007, or some new and better evidence which emerged since then? How have cats managed to break the species barrier despite having barely changed since domestication (if the following section is anything to go by)? It would be nice to see questions like this addressed in the taxonomy section, IF sufficiently definitive answers exist and there are sufficient sources to cite them.Lingvaristo (talk) 22:45, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Cat #1 redirects here

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

I agree that it is undesirable to have for technical reasons Cat #1 redirects here at the top of the page, but people searching for that album will be kinda surprised to find themselves here, so we should probably help them out. Troll Control (talk) 08:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Troll Control, thanks for the opinion. My first reason is that it's covered in the explanation: someone who got brought here and didn't know why would see the link "for other things called cat, see this page". They wouldn't need to know that the reason they got brought to Cat was that Wikipedia can't handle titles with a # in them-there's no need for an explanation at all, just the disambig statement.
My other concern is basically that if we have a lot of articles with disambig statements saying "for the item named X # 1, see [page]" someone might start trying to create products/companies with this name system as a promotional method so they get a disambig link at the top of common Wikipedia articles, perhaps ones related to their product business (e.g. "Bakery #1 redirects to Bakery for technical reasons" would put one company at the top of the wikipedia article for their industry). So I'd rather establish a precedent that this doesn't happen. How does that sound? Blythwood (talk) 18:30, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I've asked for more input on your proposal [1] Troll Control (talk) 04:43, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

OK no response from over there, I think due diligence has been done, I'll take it out. Troll Control (talk) 14:38, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2021

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

ItzEviexx (talk) 11:36, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Hello ItzEviexx (talk) 11:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Can I please have my privilege to edit I did nothing wrong

ItzEviexx (talk) 11:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:46, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Shouldn't they be a subspecies?

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Dogs are commonly treated as a subspecies of grey wolf (Canis lupus familiaris), but shouldn't cats be a subspecies of either the African wild cat or European wild cat? Since dogs fall within the grey wolf clade and are thus the same species, cats should fall within the wildcat clade and are thus the same species as wildcats. Why are they treated as their own while dogs and most other domestic animals are treated as a subspecies of their wild counterparts? 24.150.136.254 (talk) 20:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Is this a topic for discussion or an edit request? If you want to change something, provide Reliable sources. Dineshswamiin (talk) 09:31, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2021

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Done

There is a line about human owners who neuter their cats being gassed and thrown to vultures. This should be removed. 77.86.52.56 (talk) 08:38, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Done, thank you for spotting this. I have warned the editor who added the offending material. DuncanHill (talk) 08:54, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

"Cat-sized" listed at Redirects for discussion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Cat-sized. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 August 24#Cat-sized until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 23:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

"Alknge atherrke" listed at Redirects for discussion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Alknge atherrke. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 November 26#Alknge atherrke until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Certes (talk) 17:02, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 November 2021 (2)

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

2A00:23C4:6DAB:9500:896C:C4BC:757C:812E (talk) 18:20, 30 November 2021 (UTC) add more info and fix your punctuation  😁 sincerely  Jemma

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:34, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2021

Latest comment: 2 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Aditi09more (talk) 03:22, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ClaudineChionh (talk – contribs) 03:30, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

The word cat comes from the Old English word catt, which originates from the Late Latin word catus, meaning “domestic cat — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aditi09more (talk • contribs) 03:38, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@Aditi09more: This is already in the article. If you want to experiment with wiki syntax, please do so in your sandbox. ClaudineChionh (talk – contribs) 04:07, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Independent domestication event in China

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

According to this study, the cat was independently domesticated in Neolithic China, but a different species: the leopard cat, Prionailurus bengalensis, not Felis silvestris libyca, which replaced it later. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 10:08, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Correct, and ↑ is already ref'ed on the resp. page. – BhagyaMani (talk) 11:43, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Ah yeah, I missed it because it was not mentioned in the section "Domestication", but in the preceding section "Evolution", which is confusing. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:46, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2021

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I would like to change a few tildes 67.218.240.165 (talk) 08:18, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ClaudineChionh (talk – contribs) 08:34, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

"Moggy" listed at Redirects for discussion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Moggy and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 28#Moggy until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 19:00, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

"History of cats" listed at Redirects for discussion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect History of cats and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 February 6#History of cats until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jay (talk) 07:55, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

what an absurd title

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

It seems that you use the common name of cats and not their scientific name, so you can differentiate better and avoid confusion, it seems that English Wikipedia does not appreciate the classification of names in Spanish Wikipedia.--2806:262:401:8D42:0:0:0:2 (talk) 06:47, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

In everyday language, using "cat" to refer to domestic cats results in less confusion. beforeAdapter (talk · contribs) 2022-03-20T17:18Z

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2022

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion

The article says that it is felis catus but it is more appropriate to use felis silvestris catus. 2806:262:401:8D42:0:0:0:2 (talk) 06:54, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Felis catus is correct, see section *Taxonomy*. – BhagyaMani (talk) 08:18, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

See https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Felis_catus Duck Dawny (talk) 10:12, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Domesticated or Not Domesticated?

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Hi, I submit that many cats are not domesticated. They chose to live with humans, but could live, survive and thrive as a wild animal. Currently, the article refers to the "cat" (Felis catus) as a domesticated species! Any comments? Duck Dawny (talk) 17:16, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

The usual term for that is "feral". AnonMoos (talk) 03:10, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

No, feral is when a domesticated animal returns to being undomesticated, i.e. wild. In the case of many cats they were never domesticated and are still able to live in the wild, if they chose to. Duck Dawny (talk) 09:53, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Real African wildcats or European wildcats are not feral, but similar felines running free outside the range of where wildcats are found are overwhelmingly feral (as are many inside such geographical ranges). In some cases there can be hybrids of feral cats and true wildcats... AnonMoos (talk) 11:45, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I think you're misinterpreting what "domesticated" means. From our article: Domestication is a sustained multi-generational relationship in which humans assume a significant degree of control over the reproduction and care of another group of organisms to secure a more predictable supply of resources from that group. While any individual cat may or may not be in a close relationship with a human, the species overall has been domesticated. To take another tack, if cats weren't domesticated, then living with humans wouldn't even be an option for cats as a whole; the fact that, by and large, cats can live closely with humans at all is a sign that they have, as a species, been domesticated. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 12:57, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

FA nomination

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I was going to nominate this for FA status as all the concerns when the article was delisted have been fixed, but I forgot to consult regular contributors to the page. Could any provide their opinion on this? interstate five 01:21, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

History of Domestication

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The History of Domestication deals only with the Mediterranean world. Burmese and Siamese cats seem to have a long history...are these separate incidences of domestication, or did Mediterranean domesticated cats find their way to the far east at an early date?Arrecife (talk) 20:55, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Kellas Cat

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This article says "House cats often mate with feral cats,[54] producing hybrids such as the Kellas cat in Scotland.[55]" while the article about the Kellas cat says it is a hybrid with the Scottish wildcat. I believe the Kellas cat article is correct. Would someone with easy access to the Journal of Zoology please check reference 55 and reconcile the two articles. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 05:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Cat prey

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Should insects be added to the animals cats are skilled at hunting? Or is it not common enough in cats overall to be notable enough to mention? Blu Moon (talk) 20:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that insects are a significant part of a cat's diet (not sure whether a cat could live too long eating only insects), so even if they sometimes toy with moths or whatever, the hunt-to-eat element seems to be mostly missing... AnonMoos (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Species classification

Latest comment: 1 year ago6 comments3 people in discussion

The species name of felus catus is severely outdated and references a mid 18th century article.The housecat is currently considered (according to 2007 ruling by the international commission of zoological nomenclature) one of the subspecies of felus sylvestris, felus sylvestris catus and is considered semi-domesticated having very little to distinguish it from other f.sylvestris subspecies. Robbyrockett (talk) 03:30, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

You are mistaken. The domestic cat Felis catus is treated as a distinct taxon following Opinion 2027 of the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (2003). See section #Taxonomy + references therein. – BhagyaMani (talk) 08:37, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry but, opinion 2027 says that both names are valid for the same species.

The decision was as to whether felis sylvestris was valid since the name felis catus had predated felis sylvestris on naming the the same species.

https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/34357823#page/97/mode/1up

Case 3010 decided 17 names for wild animals that had been predated by a name for the same species based on domestic variety and settles on " sylvestris,felis catus", recognizing it as a subspecies.

The IUCN publication you are quoting from " a revised taxonomy of the felidae" from 2017 then goes on to cite Gentry etc al.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222518224_The_naming_of_wild_animal_species_and_their_domestic_derivates

The EEP doesn't even recognize felis catus as valid and instead redirects to felis sylvestris

https://eunis.eea.europa.eu/species/14240

Also seehttps://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Felis_silvestris_catus

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Felis_silvestris_catus

Also see classification herehttps://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/c/Cat.htm

"opinion 2027 (published in Volume 60, Part 1 of the Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature, March 31 2003) the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature "conserved the usage of 17 specific names based on wild species, which are predated by or contemporary with those based on domestic forms", thus confirming F. silvestris for the wild cat and F. silvestris catus for its domesticated subspecies. (F. catus is still valid if the domestic form is considered a separate species)

Bottom line is for binomial classification felis catus and felis sylvestris can be valid. For trinomial classification (recognizing subspecies) felis sylvestris catus is correct.

IUCN decided to use felis catus strictly as a naming convention, it does not distinguish it as a separate species, nor does any of the sources it references.

Current researchers use felis sylvestris catus.

Etc ,etc— Preceding unsigned comment added by Robbyrockett (talk • contribs) 14:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Look at 1) the dates of the linked websites : they have not been updated for a few years, reflect the outdated taxonomy, but fail to reference the revision of felid taxonomy by members of the Cat Specialist Group; 2) the topic of the linked articles, which are NOT taxonomic papers, i.e. do NOT discuss taxonomy of the domestic cat. – BhagyaMani (talk) 15:16, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

1.Nevermind that the IUCN isn't a nomenclatural authority and the article was published in a magazine not a peer reviewed journal. The source sighted by the IUCN paper recognizes using felis silvestris catus if it is regarded as a subspecies. ICZN opinion 2027 specifies this. This is why peer reviewed publications as recent as this year can correctly use F. s. catus

The IUCN paper even recognizes this by stating the reason for using F.Catus is they are regarding it as a full species within this publication according to a 2004 paper here. ( Note this wiki already cites more recent studies which indicate it is a subspecies)

"

Following the ruling of the International Commis-

sion for Zoological Nomenclature (Opinion 2027; International Com-

mission on Zoological Nomenclature 2003), the domestic descendant

of the North African wildcat should be treated as a separate taxon, which here is regarded as a full species, Felis catus (Gentry et al. 2004).Domesticated mostly from a lineage of Felis lybica lybica from Meso-potamia (Driscoll et al. 2007)."

2. This wiki misquotes the IUCN paper by stating

"  Following Opinion 2027 of the Interna-

tional Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (2003), the domestic cat is treated as a distinct species"

Which does not appear in the paper at all.

Instead it says this

"Domesticated mostly from a lineage of Felis lybica lybica from Meso-potamia (Driscoll et al. 2007). Following Opinion 2027 of the Interna-tional Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (2003), the domestic cat is treated as a distinct taxon, Felis catus (Gentry et al. 2004)."

Perhaps we could at least fix the misquote within the wiki article.

I realize in all this that F.catus is also technically correct so I can't claim it isn't. However so is F.s.catus when regarded as a subspecies. Which I guess is not really necessary to include. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robbyrockett (talk • contribs) 02:33, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

The name Felis silvestris catus only makes sense if we also assume that the African wildcat is Felis silvestris lybica, but Felis lybica seems to be widely used across Wikipedia. Using the terms inconsistently gives the incorrect impression that the domestic cat is more closely related to the European wildcat, F. silvestris, than to F. lybica, especially given the wording of this sentence: "In 2007, it was considered a subspecies, F. silvestris catus, of the European wildcat (F. silvestris) following results of phylogenetic research." The first citation for this sentence, Driscoll (2009), is clear that the domestic cat is a descendant of the African wildcat: "The domestic cat is referred to as a sixth subspecies, F. silvestris catus, although it is clear that domestic cats derive very recently from F. silvestris lybica." The second citation, Wozencraft (2005), doesn't support the claim at all given that... it's from 2005, and thus has very little to say about phylogenetic research in 2007. I'm not an expert in felid taxonomy (that's why I came to this article!) and my previous knowledge of the subject came from neither Driscoll (2009) nor Wozencraft (2005) but rather Data (2369). However, I can follow a link, and I can tell that the sentence as written gives a misleading impression of what the cited sources say.

I would argue that the Driscoll citation should be changed to the original 2007 paper, the Wozencraft citation should be removed entirely (at least for this sentence), and the sentence should be rephrased to something like "In 2007, both the domestic cat and its wild ancestor, the African wildcat, were considered to be two of the six subspecies of Felis silvestris following results of phylogenetic research, and were accordingly named F. silvestris catus and F. silvestris lybica respectively." The following sentence should then be edited slightly to say something like "In 2017, the IUCN Cat Classification Taskforce followed the recommendation of the ICZN in regarding the domestic cat as a distinct species, Felis catus, and its Near East ancestor as Felis lybica." (However, I would also suggest that perhaps the entire section should be rewritten completely, as the changes I'm proposing to make the current version less confusing are hardly the most elegant.)

The WP:BOLD thing to do would of course be to make these changes myself, but as a lowly IP anon who rarely edits and may not be fully up to date on the current conventions, I thought it better to bring my suggestions here first. 2601:14D:4E00:C1E0:0:0:0:2841 (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2022

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

In the introduction, please change “effected” to “affected”. 아름다운 반짝임 (talk) 04:22, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Not done: Wording is correct as is. UtherSRG (talk) 12:41, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2022

Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Change "This article is about the species commonly kept as a pet" to "This article is about the domestic cat". ඞඞඞඞඞඞ (talk) 17:21, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Not done: We need to be more specific. "domestic cat" is less specific than "species commonly kept as a pet" ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 17:25, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Wait a minute, don’t they mean the same thing? 아름다운 반짝임 (talk) 04:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Farm animals are also domesticated. AnonMoos (talk) 23:20, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

File:Felis catus-cat on snow.jpg

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This image is in the article twice. Once in the infobox and once further down. might be worth removing the second instance.©Geni (talk) 01:39, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

This was completed. Renewableandalternativeenergy (talk) 04:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2022

Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Change "This article is about the species commonly kept as a pet" to "This article is about the domestic cat". ඞඞඞඞඞඞ (talk) 17:21, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Not done: We need to be more specific. "domestic cat" is less specific than "species commonly kept as a pet" ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 17:25, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Wait a minute, don’t they mean the same thing? 아름다운 반짝임 (talk) 04:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Farm animals are also domesticated. AnonMoos (talk) 23:20, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

File:Felis catus-cat on snow.jpg

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This image is in the article twice. Once in the infobox and once further down. might be worth removing the second instance.©Geni (talk) 01:39, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

This was completed. Renewableandalternativeenergy (talk) 04:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2023

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Gallegososew (talk) 22:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I would like to add some information cause I have studied on this Sincerely,Gallegosew

Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 22:50, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

About this cat

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Hey, guys? What is this cat? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Felis_catus-cat_on_snow.jpg

I mean I know it's a cat, but what kind of cat is it?

This cat resembled my own who was ran over by a car yesterday while she was crossing a road.Scarlet Marines (talk) 23:02, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Looks like an ordinary "tabby" color pattern to me. AnonMoos (talk) 01:20, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Rest in peace to your cat ♥ Ocemccool (talk) 09:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with the above comment

Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments1 person in discussion

It may not hunt every species of bird, mammal and reptile!@Ocemccool CatLover 1137 (talk) 11:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I didn’t mean User:AnonMoos Post I meant ocemccool’s comment! CatLover 1137 (talk) 11:37, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2023

Latest comment: 7 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The article features no photos of humans holding cats, and only one photo of a cat on a person's lap. In this photo, the gentleman is holding the cat properly and I think this is an important addition to the article, specifically in the "interactions with humans" category. Austin Ring (talk) 23:25, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. StartOkayStop (talk) 04:46, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Heavily outdated data

Latest comment: 8 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The data provided is heavily out of date in many instances. For example, the data on number of cats worldwide is that from 2007. Would appreciate if someone is able to update the article, or it would turn decrepit soon. 117.197.226.142 (talk) 14:45, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

If you can find updated data from reliable and independent sources, someone will be happy to assist. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Source

Latest comment: 8 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I removed this recently added source as "citation overkill" for a basic fact that has little to do with the citation's very narrow subject. However, it might be useful for specifics on cat tongue physiology if we wanted to use it:

Noel, Alexis C.; Hu, David L. (2018). "Cats use hollow papillae to wick saliva into fur". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 115 (49): 12377–12382. doi:10.1073/pnas.1809544115.

— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:55, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2023

Latest comment: 4 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Elpatojunior18 (talk) 20:44, 18 December 2023 (UTC) Cat

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 21:02, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

How necessary is the explicit description of cat torture and live roasting in this article?

Latest comment: 7 months ago5 comments4 people in discussion

The article currently describes with explicit details how cats used to be put in cages and burned in fires while alive, screeching in pain, while people cheered.

I don't see how these gore details add anything to the main page. Poor kids who look up cats on Wikipedia to prepare for their first show & tell and end up unnecessarily traumatized.

These details could easily be transferred to the article about superstition and cats, or something else. 184.161.4.107 (talk) 00:49, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

@184.161.4.107, Wikipedia isn’t censored, but I understand your concern. Brachy08 _(Talk) 01:04, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

This level of detail is not really pertient in the main Cat article, regardless of the particular concern raised by the anon. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:44, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I condensed the quote down to the main paragraph about the burning. A mention of the superstition is needed, but the explicit details don't really add anything. 267 07:34, 4 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twosixtyseven (talk • contribs)

And even that's been trimmed. WHich is good. This is the general article about cats, not an article about medieval-and-later superstitions about and mistreatement of cats. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:19, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2023

Latest comment: 6 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

108.48.21.90 (talk) 18:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Cats are known to be more aggressive than dogs. It been tested.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 19:01, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

On the vagueness of the introduction and lack of origins.

Latest comment: 6 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Not sure why my edit was reverted, but my point is that the introduction to this species (cat, felis catus) is too vague; “The cat (Felis catus) is a domesticated species of small carnivorous mammal.” Specifically the phrase “small carnivorous mammal” is not clear on what kind of ‘mammal’ (big cats or wildcats) they descend from. The wording is not the best. Hence, I have decided to take inspiration from the article on dogs, and give a more concise background to the history of this adorable animal. FelixLadd (talk) 11:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

You kept refs in places where they did not support your reformulation of the lead. E.g. "Linnaeus1758" did not explicitly consider the domestic cat as a "descendant of the wildcat". And you introduced a MOS:EGG by linking "derived" to "Domestication of the cat", not a good idea. BhagyaMani (talk) 14:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Rampant plagiarism

Latest comment: 5 months ago8 comments4 people in discussion

I see so much plagiarism in WP articles - but I noted a recent edits simply admitted it 'copied content from African wildcat; text originally contributed by User:BhagyaMani in June 2020' - or is the editor actively pointing it out? -- I also see WP used as a source and plagiarism - see Fentanil alt. spelling - all over the I but wrong - well it is 2023 and who really cares anymore. BeingObjective (talk) 12:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Copying text from other Wikipedia articles isn't considered plagiarism so long as it is acknowledged. SilverTiger12 (talk) 14:13, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

But it is generally not - and that is a problem. BeingObjective (talk) 14:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

It is a problem to take up at the offending user's talk page, or to take to WP:ANI if you've done so but they keep doing it anyway. If you encounter an instance of it, you can fix it in the article by reverting the copy-paste, then in a second edit putting it back in with proper attribution. But in this case, attribution was properly given, so there is no issue. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks - BeingObjective (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

It is not the only section - check this article - run a search, it is not unique to the one statement and I suspect we all know this - it is far worse in med arts. But is prevalent in this art. Cheers BeingObjective (talk) 15:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Already told you how to resolve this: If you've identified a segment that was copy-pasted from another article here without attributing the material to the other article (and thus its article history), remove the material in one edit (e.g. with a note that it's being removed as an unattributed copy-paste), then in the next edit put it back with the attribution it needs. We're all volunteers here and have a lot of demands on our time. You are the editor with the concern that this needs to be rectified, so be bold and get it done. :-) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:53, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

You need to make yourself familiar with some WP guidelines like this one: WP:PATT. BhagyaMani (talk) 08:16, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Evolution section fails to have the basic information

Latest comment: 5 months ago7 comments3 people in discussion

Somehow this section has become devoid of any taxonomic and evolutionary information, which is of course a disservice to our readers. Last I was reading up on this (several years ago) it was certain that domestic cats evolved from F. lybica, but that information (or even info on any renewed scientific dispute about the matter) is utterly missing. Over at Felinae is a "family tree" chart showing F. catus as a sister taxon of F. silvestris, and neither grouped with F. lybica nor shown as a descendant of either wild cat, and this appears to be a double error. If the literature has markedly changed in the last few years, then we need to cite it and write encyclopedic material that summarizes what it now says. If it hasn't changed and F. lybica is still the canonical ancestor, then we need to say that, in both articles. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:26, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

We can add the cladogram shown at African wildcat#Phylogeny, of course with WP:PATT. I think I made this a couple of years ago, need to check. BhagyaMani (talk) 23:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. I wasn't aware of the nuclear–mitochondrial ancestry split on this; like I say, it's been several years since I read anything reliable on the matter. I just know our article shouldn't have zero information, and it looks like the Felinae article needs more complete information. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:13, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

It may not be a real discordance. The nuclear data is based on a few specimens (Johnson et al, 2006; Li et al, 2017), while the mitochondrial data in Driscoll et al 2010 had hundreds of samples [Edit: they also had nuclear data (see below)]. The result is difficult to express in a simple phylogenetic tree as there need to be many lybica/domestic cat clades and they remain intermingled (unlike the clear split between dogs and wolves). Similar results with ancient DNA find the same pattern (Ottoni et al 2017; doi:10.1038/s41559-017-0139). — Jts1882 | talk 17:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Then what do you propose? Or feel free to change the cladogram as you deem appropriate. BhagyaMani (talk) 17:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what to do. The cladograms from African wildcat#Phylogeny are fine as they just illustrate the results, although perhaps the difference needs a comment.

However, I've wasn't remembering the Driscoll et al (2007) paper properly. They also had STR/microsatellite nuclear data, which shows six clades that correspond to the mitochondrial clades (I-VI: silvestris, cafra, ornata, lybica/catus, bieti, margarita) and showed the domestic cats embedded in lybica. The main differences from the mitochondria data are that bieti is embedded as sister to ornata (Fig 2C), rather than sister to the wildcat (F. silvestris sensu lato), and that the Near Eastern clade IV has internal divisions with European and Asiatic domestic cat clades which together are sister to a mixed lybica/domestic cat clade. If we are to compare nuclear and mitochondrial results perhaps we should use this focuses study with broad sampling rather than the Felidae studies with limited sampling within Felis (Johnson et al, 2006; Li et al, 2017). — Jts1882 | talk 13:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Speaking as a non-specialist, that seems reasonable to me. It would surely be better to present a complex picture that reflects the complete available research than to give an over-simplification. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:28, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Felis

	Sand cat

	European wildcat

African wildcat

	Southern African wildcat

	Domestic cat

	Near Eastern wildcat

	Asiatic wildcat

	Chinese mountain cat

Felis

Change the Name of the page to Domestic Cat

Latest comment: 3 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

"Cat" may refer to any memeber of the feline family. If the page is changed to "Domestic Cat" then it would be easier to identify. 76.64.181.63 (talk) 05:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Not done: The hatnote at the top of the article takes care of that. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)