Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive130

Hi, this user is moving pages with diacritics to versions without them only because there was no redirect from the unaccented version (e.g.). He refuses to make simple redirects because it does not teach the involved editors to make redirects. Three users protested his actions, but he is still insisting on his own way. See related talk section. I have no time or will to babysit him and revert the moves. Please do something about it. Thank you. Renata 17:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Nygaard seems to be on the edge (or beyond) of WP:POINT, but well-intentioned. Perhaps if a few admins weighed in we could channel his desire to help more effectively. Martinp 01:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have restored this comment to the noticeboard as this editor has continued moving pages despite eight editors asking him to stop or reverting his edits - a clear action against consensus.

Just one example: Rétság was moved to Retsag today. Now, for no encyclopaedic reason, it is the single Hungarian place in its category without the correct diacritics, and all the internal links point to a redirect. This is not a good thing.

Gene claims on his talk page that he moves the pages (rather than creating the necessary redirect) to make a point to the original page creator that they should have created a diacriticless redirect earlier. As mentioned by Martinp, this breaches WP:POINT; this editor should not be working against consensus, disturbing consistent naming schemes and creating needless redirect, RFM and page move work for other editors in order to attract attention to a cause.

Administrator help for the clear-up would be much appreciated, too. Aquilina 16:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I would add that he does not seem to look for a compromise. Renata 16:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely. Something should be done about this. —freak(talk) 17:01, Aug. 14, 2006 (UTC)

If we can collide him with User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (who did a huge number of disruptive pagemoves in sort of the opposite direction recently) would there be a matter-antimatter explosion? Phr (talk) 17:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted Gene's latest moves. He does seem to be doing more harm than good, despite having a perfectly valid point about unaccented redirects. — sjorford++ 17:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've left a warning on his user page. If he continues I think a 1 hour block would make sense (I don't want to block for longer because this is minor and Gene is a generally good contributor). JoshuaZ 17:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have left a message on his talk page as well. Regardless of his motives - and I believe, from long experience, Gene has the best interests of the project at heart - this is not the way to go about things, and only inflames people. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 17:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue of non-English-alphabet names needs to have a clear policy -- something to be decided from above. I have made it my rule so far to create articles with the native name, creating redirects for all the Anglicized versions. I agree that Gene's policy of anglicizing article names (without that being a clear WP policy) does more harm than good -- Palthrow 18:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a big issue, I thought we have guidelines (see the RAN incident) that we name the article with the most common English spelling, e.g. John von Neumann instead of Neumann János. But in the cases where the name isn't commonly used in English, we use the native spelling. Phr (talk) 19:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So, according to the very valid points you are making--no determination has yet been made as to the proper English Wikipedia title in the articles I am moving. Therefore, no one has any real grounds for complaint against my moves. The unaccented form has not yet been considered by anyone. If you disagree with my choice as to the particular title, you can discuss it on that articles talk page. Or, you can even revert me--but at least we don't end up with the totally unacceptable position which prevailed before. If you do revert me, the redirect will remain. That means that someone who sees some word or name of a person or place in an English language newspaper or magazine story will now at least have a reasonable chance to find the Wikipedia article on the subject, if one exists. That wasn't the case before.

Sure, in many cases it really doesn't matter all that much which of the various spellings and forms appears in the article title, as long as you can find the article by slapping on the squigglies after I have moved it to the English form, or whatever. What is totally unacceptable is not to have a search for the English alphabet version work. Gene Nygaard 02:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

A couple of other things to consider:

1. After my moves, all links from forms with accents still work and still get you to the proper article.
2. After my moves, entering the accented form into the "Go" box still works.
3. After my moves, many former redlinks are now blue, and take you to the correct article.
4. After my moves, entering the English alphabet form in the "Go" box works as well, something that wasn't true before.

Actually, there are almost no places where you will even notice that the article has been moved, when it comes to finding information in Wikipedia.

Furthermore, many of these articles are accompanied by another problem--not being indexed properly in the categories. It isn't a one-to-one correspondence; some of those missing any connection the the English alphabet form have already been indexed properly (and in most cases, appear as they should in the same place in the list whether the accents are included in the article title or not), and some with the article title in an unaccented version have improper use of diacritics in the indexing sort keys. But quite often the two problems go hand in hand. Gene Nygaard 02:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Al those things you mention in the numbered bullets would be correct if you made a simple redirect! And for the record, Gene moved 2 more pages after posting here. Renata 11:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem with redirects is that they are invisible.

One of the major problems with that is that you miss out on the knowledge of those people who know when a letter is often transliterated as two letters rather than one (dj, dz, aa, ou, etc.), and can thus also create redirects from the other spellings as well. If their attention isn't called to the problem, because we only made an invisible semi-fix to one particular article, then that is missed. One of the problems, of course, is that a single character can be transliterated differently in different languages, so there is not any one size fits all solution, even if I were to bother even trying to learn all those silly rules for each of the thousands of possible characters. Gene Nygaard 12:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ten people have told you to stop.

• A redirect does not move a page to a name inconsistent with all the other related articles in its category, unlike your moves.
• A redirect does not need WP:RM and an admin to undo, unlike some of your moves.
• A redirect does not require a team of editors to waste their time reverting your contributions needlessly, unlike your moves.
• A redirect does not move the page does not move the page to an arbitrary transliteration like your moves do - you even admit you don't fully understand transliteration schemes above.
• A redirect does not cause multiple double redirects which you don't bothered to fix, unlike your moves.

Gene, these are just a few of the reasons people have told you to stop. If you want to highlight something to editors, put a reminder on their user talk pages, or bring it up on the community policy talk pages: do not abuse page moves. You have carried on moving pages unnecessarily [1], [2] despite multiple warnings, and you have clearly declared your intent to carry on ("I shall continue to express my choice in my way" - [3]). This wasting of other contributors' time to prove a point should not continue. Aquilina 17:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Gene, how many other people need to tell you to stop? Or do we need to get in the business of blocks and RfCs? No one wants that, everyone thinks your intentions are well, but please stop. Renata 17:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

So, try this. Put "Taniko" in the box on your Wikipedia page. Then click on either "Go" or "Search". Do you find an article dealing with a weaving technique? As I write this, you won't.

Now figure out some other way to find the article dealing with that weaving technique. Then show me by example how your method works, what you'd do to fix the problem. Show me whose talk page you'd go to, and what you'd say, and let me know how well it works.

Or are you just interested in being a pest and disrupting things? Gene Nygaard 00:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It was easy to fix. Taniko is now a redirect to Tāniko. What's wrong with that? —ptk✰fgs 07:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, for starters

1. It had no effect whatsoever on the fact that Ngai Tai remains a redlink, whereas if you had called it to the attention of someone who had actually edited the Tāniko article, they might have taken the hint and fixed others as well. But no one with Tāniko on their watchlists will even know that you had made any change related to it.
2. You failed to fix it so that Tāniko is indexed correctly in its categories. Gene Nygaard 11:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Just want to say that I fully support using only standard ASCII characters in article titles. Using non-standard characters makes finding articles and editing them very annoying. Gene Nygaard should be commended for his effort.  Grue  07:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Tu put it short: I do not agree with Gene for the simple reason that if nobody makes a redirect we have a wrong article title and the reader does not know that (he cannot know whether the title is an alternative name, the correct spelling, the wrong spelling etc.). Therefore I am strictly against any such titles and I have seen no rule saying that we should have wrong article titles. Juro 02:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

They are most definitely not "wrong" article titles. You might argue that one is better than the other for the one slot we have available for the actual title, but redirects mean that we can find it under any of the "correct" possibilities--as long as they exist, of course. The problem is, these redirects often do not exist. Gene Nygaard 21:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Gene, that is exactly what we are arguing. You seem to be saying that it doesn't matter at all where the article is, as long as all appropriate redirects point to it. Your aim of making sure all possible redirects exist - which, I stress again, is an aim I agree with 100% - is one that can be achieved without moving these articles from their established titles. I ask you one last time, please stop these disruptive and pointless moves. — sjorford++ 08:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me highlight the problems as clearly as possible. Looking at Category:Towns in Turkey, it is clear that to find or refer to any Turkish town, I should use the name with diacritcs, as this is the form that has been used by the editors of all these 74 pages. Except this isn't true any more; Güzelçamlı and Çatalsu weren't after your spree last night.

Is there any encyclopaedic reason for this, or perhaps a reason stemming from principal usage? No. It's completely arbitrary, and purely down to the stubborness of one editor who freely admits he doesn't fully understand the principles of transliteration in these languages. An editor, in fact, who doesn't sort out the dozens of double redirects he creates to these pages by moving them, but who justifies himself by complaining about double redirects. One who says the article title hasn't been considered, but does not take into account the considerations of the article creator, all subsequent editors, and the consideration given to the naming within the group of articles as a whole.

Gene, looking through your contribs you're not even implementing the current conventions correctly:

• we don't move articles to the "English name" just because one exists (see Takuu) - we move it there if that "English name" is the predominant usage. Hence Moscow but not Marseilles or Saragossa.
• we don't strip people of diacritics just because they are American; you do so if they are American and their name is predominantly used without them: my esteemed friend Mr Müller didn't have to relinquish his umlaut to obtain an American passport, and neither did his children who were born there, and their u's remain adorned to this day.
• we don't move articles if they index peculiarly - we fix the indexing with the tag. If editor education is your main aim, as claimed, why revert 30-odd edits by User:Ionius Mundus last night for this reason and not even bother to discuss it with him on his talk page?

There is no current canon yet on whether we use a restricted character set for titles. If you want to change naming conventions, change it at the policy level through the proper channels and not through isolated, inconsistent, incomplete and disruptive page moves. At least at the moment we have consistency within related article groups. It is not worth losing this when we can achieve largely the same result a less disruptive fashion. Fix the index tags like you normally do, create the diacriticless redir, fix the double redirects and if you really want, leave a note on the article creator's talk to politely remind them to create the redir themselves in future. Make a template to do so if you wish.

You have made ~100 such edits. All have been reverted. This usually shows you're doing something people think you shouldn't.

Doing so even when repeatedly requested not to by numerous editors, administrators, and a member of ArbCom is disrupting the encyclopaedia. Aquilina 12:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I had this Gene appear out of nowhere like a bear with a sore head making threats to revert moves made to Polynesian mythology articles because the macronised vowels in those names upset the categorization which it seems in his book is more important than accuracy. He said that if he had to do it he would do it the easy way, ie, revert the moves. Why could he not have approached me civilly and pointed out the deficiencies in my use of category sort codes (of which I knew nothing) nicely? OK, I learned, but he made me angry for no good reason. Then he shifted Takuu, (an article about an atoll in Papua New Guinea I was heavily involved in writing) to Mortlock Islands because apparently 'if there is an English name we should use it.' That was uncalled for and annoying because 'Mortlock Islands' is little used in this part of the world to refer to Takuu, and because there is actually another group of islands called 'Mortlock Islands' in the Federated States of Micronesia. It was like he looked up my contributions and decided to mess with Takuu just because I added diacritics to some article names. I feel annoyed because I have done a lot of work to begin cleaning up a huge mess in the Polynesian articles, and I get treated like a vandal by this rude Gene. Editing to make a point is not kosher is it? Another thing that he may not be aware of, is that English comes in many flavours, and in the New Zealand flavour, accepted spelling of Māori words often INCLUDES THE DIACRITICS. Coincidentally (or not), at the same time as Gene was threatening the reverts, an anonymous person with the IP 66.97.252.168 added sort codes on two categories on the Māori Wikipedia Kahuroa 12:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't change the indexing, even if it is "often" though certainly not universal in New Zealand it still is indexed with a rather than according to Unicode numbers. Even in mi:Category:Ngā tāone o Aotearoa you should be fixing the indexing so that ā doesn't come after "b", let alone after "z" as it usually does now--but that doesn't mean I'll bother getting a user name there, even if I do help out a bit. That also includes indexing of categories in their supercategories. I'll give you a little more time before following up on your moves here on English Wikipedia and fixing any you might have missed. After you finish that, maybe you'd be interested in fixing those such as the Ngai Tai mentioned above which remains a redlink as of this posting, even though more than two days without any of the supposedly concerned people following this thread taking the hint. Gene Nygaard 13:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Note also that the Maori Wikipedia puts Maori accent marks in its spelling of Europe (mi:Ūropi). There's nothing unique about English articles being in the English alphabet spelling. And mi:Tiamana, fr:Allemagne, nn:Tyskland, de:Deutschland, and en:Germany are all articles about the very same place. Gene Nygaard 14:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Does your "esteemed friend Mr Müller" have a Wikipedia article in need of attention? Where will I find him in the Social Security Death Index when he dies? Have you actually seen any of his children's report cards from school? What does his driver's license say? What does the court docket say if he is stopped for speeding or arrested for something else, or the newspaper in its report of that? In some of such cases, usage with accents can probably be established; but in most cases, all that justifies is a redirect from the accented form. The burden is on those trying to establish that fact, especially with regard to the article name rather than just a redirect, whereas I was obviously dealing with cases where it had never been considered since there wasn't even a redirect or disambiguation page link. Gene Nygaard 14:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, Aquilina, if you fix categories such as Category:Districts of Kırşehir so that they are sorted properly, then I won't find so many articles ripe for a move. Note that this isn't an easy task; it is complicated by nasty templates adding the categories in a way not visible on the edit page. Gene Nygaard 15:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

This editor seems to be working against consensus, although he may have some folk in support of the naming question, the consensus seems clear that he should not be doing what he is doing the way he is doing it. Arguing the points of what is right or wrong about naming is out of place on this, the Administrator's Notice board, and ought to be taken elsewhere.

The only relevant question here is, are the actions of this editor disrupting the encyclopedia, and if so, what should be done about it? The answers seem clear to me, they are disruptive, and if he will not agree to stop doing them until consensus is clear, and then agree to abide by consensus whether he agrees or not (these are our norms, after all), he should be blocked. Gene Nygaard, Bobblewik, SPUI... these seem of a class... acting in good faith and with good intentions, up to a point, but unwilling to abide by consensus, and insistent on editing to enforce their view in the face of strong opposition. That's just not collegial. Therefore I think a block is in order here. ++Lar: t/c 15:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I have temporarily blocked Bobblewik because he has returned to rapid en-masse date delinking of articles, just 8 minutes after his last one month block expired. He is also doing other less controversial MoS style edits, but the date delinking ones are accompanied by the less than descriptive edit summary of "links". I bring this here for review. Bobblewik has been repeatedly blocked for continual delinking of dates. Despite extensive past discussions at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), he is well aware that there is no widespread consensus for these edits. From past discussion here, on his talk page and his block history, he is well aware that these edits are extremely controversial and disruptive. I think this is an editor who is clearly not prepared to stop these disruptive edits and is on the brink of expending the patience of the community completely. I think it is time to consider a community imposed ban. Thoughts everyone, thanks. --Cactus.man ✍ 13:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd support either an indef block or if consensus fails that, a new, longer block than last time, as there's no evidence of any desire to work within the concerns that others have raised. ++Lar: t/c 14:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This seems rather minor a problem for an indefinite community ban. Has anyone thought of bringing an ArbComm case? Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 14:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Rebecca thought about it [4] but blocking has proved more popular [5]. Thincat 15:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Certainly a lot of people object to Bobblewik's year delinking, and a lot of other people support it. The MOS says "There is less agreement about links to years. Some editors believe that links to years are generally useful to establish context for the article. Others believe that links to years are rarely useful to the reader and reduce the readability of the text". At one stage there was a suggestion that one should not edit articles specifically to remove date links. It looks to be that today Bobblewik has been finding articles with units to tidy up and then delinking years when he saw them too. This obviously has not placated the opponents! Personally I support delinking but I wish BW wouldn't do it because it gets some people so upset. Can't his tremendous number of valuable edits allow room for a bit of leeway? Thincat 14:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure. If he stops doing what he's doing nobody will bother him. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Could the discussion of this be moved to User talk:Bobblewik so he can respond ? He feels that the block was unjustified given that he was operating within the restrictions imposed on him. Megapixie 15:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of unblocking him provisionally on that he will not touch dates and he'll come here to discuss this. This is not an unblock I have a stake in -- if in the judgement of anyone this is not kosher or he does something to abuse that trust, I won't be offended if you undo my action. Please see here for my reasoning. --Improv 16:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No problem with the unblock - see below, just my slow typing speed (why was there no edit conflict ???) --Cactus.man ✍ 16:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This discussion needs to be held here for maximum community exposure. This is a recurring pattern of editing from Bobblewik. You make reference to "restrictions imposed on him", but from what I see, that was some informal comment by some editors regarding the speed of his edits (and whether or not he is running an unauthorised bot), not some officially community sanctioned imposition. Those comments also made reference to the "necessity of leaving more descriptive edit summaries or talk page messages on your delinkings (with reasonings on why you removed a particular link) and throttl[ing] the number of such edits down to something below 6 in a minute". Editing speed has certainly been reduced, but the use of descriptive edit summaries and talk page summaries have clearly not been improved.

The problem is that even at his newly reduced editing speed there is clearly no scope for full consideration of the relevance of any date links to the context of the article he edits; THAT is where I believe the majority of opposition to these edits has stemmed from. I agree that many articles are overly date linked, but context is everything and many date links can be considered relevant. Bobblewik's latest bout of editing just removed all linked dates when encountered, at a speed that clearly would not allow sufficient examination of the context in which each date was linked. There is wide disagreement on this issue between editors and no clear consensus that these edits are acceptable. Bobblewik has been asked by numerous people, including Jimbo apparently, to stop this. After expiry of each and every block what happens? Boblewik returns and starts delinking dates, and I repeat en-masse because that's what is happening. Articles edited today with a non preference linked date were changed at at around 2 per minute initially. All linked dates were changed - blam, onto the next one - that is en-masse date delinking without consideration of the context in relation to the article.

I agree with Sam that a community ban is probably too hasty, but this recurring pattern is definitely disruptive - perhaps ArbCom is the correct way forward. This needs to be resolved one way or another. In response to Megapixie, I am prepared to unblock Bobblewik to allow him to respond here, provided he gives an undertaking not to delink dates while this discussion is ongoing. --Cactus.man ✍ 16:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Bobblewik could be a good contributor, and the delinking of dates is justified in some circumstances. I think we need more input from the community on what to do with this user; I'd mentor him if anyone approves of this idea. --TheM62Manchester 17:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that date delinking is often justifiable but the problem is Bobblewik's rapid "carpet bombing" method of doing so. I think some form of mentorship might have some merit as you suggest M62. We await some input from Bobblewik, now that he's unblocked. --Cactus.man ✍ 07:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for undoing the block. The problem is that square brackets are used for two independent functions:

• 1. Hyperlinks
• 2. Date preference

Many editors say that they thought that *all* date components must be within square brackets. It is clear that much of the excessive linking is by well-meaning editors that misunderstood the issue and/or just followed others.

Furthermore, the implementation mechanism is so complicated that we get things like [[November 12th]], [[November 15|15 Nov]] which prevent the preference mechanism working. In some cases, we get plausible errors that make the text difficult to read with preferences. For example, even experienced editors believe that [[November 12]]-[[November 15|15]] look fine, but it actually parses to the unacceptable form: 12 November-15. These could be solved on their own (a few editors, including myself have solved many) but they are merely symptoms of the problem.

Even if I never delinked another date, the desire to resolve this problem will not disappear. Around 70 to 80 % of editors that voted in a limited poll thought that action should be taken. There are many editors willing to take action. The question is, what? bobblewik

Bobblewik, you have potential - anyhow, I've got a solution, leave a message on my talk page for details... --TheM62Manchester 17:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this will all be moot once Wikipedia:Date Debate is resolved? —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-08-16 17:28Z

It will be easier: problem is newer editors think that all years should be linked (because that's what they see), link lots of years, and propagate the myth. Until this cycle is broken, the problem won't go away. Rich Farmbrough 07:08 17 August 2006 (GMT).

Can I have a definition of 'en-masse' please? bobblewik 15:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, from my earlier post above:

The problem is that even at his newly reduced editing speed there is clearly no scope for full consideration of the relevance of any date links to the context of the article he edits; THAT is where I believe the majority of opposition to these edits has stemmed from. I agree that many articles are overly date linked, but context is everything and many date links can be considered relevant. Bobblewik's latest bout of editing just removed all linked dates when encountered, at a speed that clearly would not allow sufficient examination of the context in which each date was linked. There is wide disagreement on this issue between editors and no clear consensus that these edits are acceptable. Bobblewik has been asked by numerous people, including Jimbo apparently, to stop this. After expiry of each and every block what happens? Boblewik returns and starts delinking dates, and I repeat en-masse because that's what is happening. Articles edited today with a non preference linked date were changed at at around 2 per minute initially. All linked dates were changed - blam, onto the next one - that is en-masse date delinking without consideration of the context in relation to the article.

--Cactus.man ✍ 10:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Bobblewik's behaviour is disturbing; I advise all the interested parties to take this case to the ArbCom. I don't see another effective way to solve the issue. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 10:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Cactus.man, I read that text before but I still don't understand. It describes a speed complaint, not a complaint about number of edits. Is 'en-masse' being used here as a synonym for 'fast'? bobblewik 11:37, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Bobblewik, thanks, but this is nothing to do with your speed of edits. I acknowledged that you have reduced them in line with other editor's concerns. With regards to en masse (my apologies for introducing a non existent hyphen) please consult your dictionary, thesaurus or other online resources for the meaning. En masse - all together, in one group or body, as one, as a whole ... etc. That is what you have been doing with your repeatedly contested edits. Every individually linked date or century link has been delinked by your edits, en masse, without reference to the relevance in relation to the context of the article. The speed issue relates only to your capability to properly assess the relevance of each link. Please continue discussion of this in the relevant forums but, until there is consensus for your date linking edits, please stop. Thanks. --Cactus.man ✍ 13:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Aha. You use 'en masse' to mean multiple edits *within* an article. I understand you now, thanks.

You are mistaken about relevance, I do take it into account.

I see that there is indeed a new discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) and User talk:Tyrenius. See you there. bobblewik 14:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like Mais oui! to be blocked. He regularly makes sock puppet accusations against me and persistently makes disruptive POV edits to practically all of my contributions. He admits that he is keeping watch on me. I am growing increasingly weary of having to fight a constant rearguard action against his unconstructive POV changes. If he continues, I am going to have to give up contributing to Wikipedia. I am sure I am not alone in considering him a disruptive element, and it would be best for the Wikipedia project if he were blocked from editing it. Mallimak 00:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The pair of you should stop spamming people all over the place if you expect to earn any sympathy for your respective plights. People won't take you seriously while your approach is akin to stuffing pizza leaflets through their letterboxes. This page is not for dispute resolution, and doling out a block is rarely used to resolve a dispute, and irritating you is not nearly serious enough to earn an idefinite block (nor, likely, any block at all). You need to use dispute resolution properly. If you've tried RfC, which I expect you haven't seeing as my talk page didn't get spammed about one, then try one. If that fails, try Arbitration. Also, try being nice to one another and tolerating each other's foibles. -Splash - tk 01:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, this is a repeat posting of this:

• virtually identical entry made to WP:AN/I on 13 August - now archived at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive128#Harassment_by_Mais_oui.21

Secondly, for background, you may wish to read these:

• Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Orkney (on-going)
• Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Mallimak (currently outstanding)

Thirdly, for a second opinion from Admins familiar with User:Mallimak, you may wish to consult:

• User:Wangi
• User:Alai

Fourthly, as User:Alai puts it:

" ... this is just abuse of the project space (to go with earlier abuse of the article space, the category space, and template space by the same user). The description of an edit that adds "The Orkney archipelago is a council area of Scotland." as "vandalism", and reverting it with summary "Mais oui! Why are you interfering here? Can t you just bugger off?" basically sums up the problem with Mallimak's behaviour: a determination to have his "own" content in some niche of wikipedia, regardless of encyclopaedic value, and independent of other editors' input. If this keeps up, an RFC would be indicated."

And fifthly: life is just too short. Frankly, I am "sick to the back teeth" of him, and would strongly prefer for Admins to deal with him, rather than me having to monitor his growing WP:POINT campaign.In summary: User:Mallimak has a very serious attitude problem, and is totally unwilling to even make an attempt to follow WP:NPOV, WP:CITE, WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA, among others.Thanks. --Mais oui! 01:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC) - Don't game the system! Mallimak 16:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't wish to be drawn into the specific complaint raised by Mallimak. However, Mais oui! has also falsely accused me of sockpuppetry and now routinely reverts my edits simply because they are my edits, without any discussion or attempt to reach consensus. He is the only user against whom I have encountered these problems.

I have no view about the efficacy of formal steps against Mais oui!. He clearly makes a wide range of contributions, many of which are valued by others. He has a rather transparent agenda, namely to promote Scotland and other Celtic areas at the expense of balance, objectivity or context. I would suggests that an editor whom he trusts and respects encourage him to adopt a more collaborative, less confrontational approach and to discuss directly his objections and observations wih other contributors. Normalmouth 06:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

For the background to that last comment, please see:

Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Normalmouth

"... falsely accused..." - There is no proof of whether my allegation of sockpuppetry is "false" or true because CheckUser refuses to expose a Users IP address except in "extreme" circumstances, but the evidence clearly points to Normalmouth logging-out and using his IP address to vote in a Requested move discussion. And I am very sorry to say that Normalmouth has an extremely "transparent agenda": to do all he can to stain the reputation of Plaid Cymru. No other Wikipedia article on a UK political party is as one-sidedly negative as the PC article, and a large measure of the responsibility for that lies at the doorstep to Normalmouth.

I would like to record my complete agreement with the above comments by Mais oui!Rhion 06:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

"... routinely reverts my edits simply because they are my edits... " - Not true at all. I routinely have to revert your edits because they are consistently, and heavily, POV.

I am very happy to confirm that I do contribute heavily to Scotland-related articles (as is my prerogative), and if that "promotes" Scotland I would be delighted (although slightly surprised). As for "Celtic countries": I could not give a hoot - I do not look at the world in that way. But I do do my very best to "promote" other countries I like, mainly Sweden, Norway, England, France, Italy, Canada, the US, Australia, Switzerland (actually, this list could get rather long... ). --Mais oui! 06:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"Thirdly, for a second opinion from Admins familiar with User:Mallimak, you may wish to consult: User:Wangi" — I'm not an admin, just another editor trying to settle things down. Thanks/wangi 08:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Note to admins: The above discussion is very revealing. User:Mais oui! would appear to have a tactic of indulging in edit wars and constantly attacking the contributions of users who don't agree with his POV, and of accusing them of sockpuppetry in order to undermine their credibility, obviously with the aim of getting them to give up contributing to Wikipedia. I wonder how many good contributors Wikipedia has lost as a result of Mais oui!'s tactics? He is bad news for Wikipedia and should be banned. Mallimak 09:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Both seem to be as bad (or at least almost as bad) as each other. However, Mais oui! certainly makes a number of valuable and constructive contributions, when he puts aside his own POV... I'm not as familiar with Mallimak, although his repeated spamming of this page over what appears to be a content dispute is not impressive. It might be an idea for both to talk to each other (and to whomever else might be interested) directly and to DISCUSS edits and changes before making them, in order to avoid future difficulties. That is the Wikipedia way, after all. Badgerpatrol 11:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the spamming, having seen User:Mais oui! do it, I thought it was "the Wikipedia way" to inform potential supporters for one's case - so now we can add "setting a bad example" to his list of sins! Mallimak 11:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it's not always easy to know where to go in these kind of situations. Assuming that you have tried to communicate with each other (ALWAYS the first step) and still can't resolve the issue, then you might try here for a problem of this nature. Badgerpatrol 12:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree that Mais_oui does indulge in edit warring, and attacking the contributions of other users. After I had nominated a Scottish template for deletion in favour of the British one- he responded by reverting all my recent edits with the comments- "rv English Nationalist" (see for example- [6]). Also any attempts to engage with the user and avoid edit wars is usually met with personal abuse- eg [7]. Astrotrain 13:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

He is difficult, he is aggressive, and he is a POV-pusher. By the same token, he does make very valuable contributions. I'm not taking sides in this particular issue, because it seems to me that neither are angels. But in general, I think many problems could be solved here simply by more communication and less unilateral action. Badgerpatrol 14:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Are User:Mais oui!'s contributions really so valuable that they make up for all the contributions lost to Wikipedia on account of his actions chasing other contributors away and putting others off bothering contributing? 81.158.163.232 15:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC) - (Now, look at that! I was away from the computer for a while and Wikipedia has automatically logged me off, so my IP address is given. Does that constitute sockpuppetry? Mallimak 15:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC))

An observation... I have noticed a series of less than helpful edits (removal of valid categories, switching Scottish to either Orcadian or British... you could call them disruptive) from a large number of IP accounts in the same range as Mallimak (talk · contribs)'s IP above:

• 81.156.60.96 (talk · contribs)
• 81.129.246.219 (talk · contribs)
• 81.156.57.207 (talk · contribs) (I left a comment on this IP's talk page)
• 81.155.33.133 (talk · contribs) (only made a talk page comment - cleary by Mallimak)
• 81.153.148.0 (talk · contribs)
• 81.156.56.25 (talk · contribs)
• 81.158.167.232 (talk · contribs)
• 81.158.163.17 (talk · contribs)
• 81.129.246.190 (talk · contribs)
• 81.158.163.17 (talk · contribs)
• 81.129.246.190 (talk · contribs)
• 81.129.246.185 (talk · contribs)
• 81.154.91.225 (talk · contribs)
• 81.156.57.224 (talk · contribs) (blanking WP:SFD entry)
• 81.158.162.234 (talk · contribs)
• 81.154.95.18 (talk · contribs)
• 81.156.57.185 (talk · contribs)

Clearly Mais oui! (talk · contribs) thinks these edits are being made from an IP account to get around associating them with Mallimak's account. Thanks/wangi 16:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Many of these IPs have been checkusered and are likely Mallimak. The question is do these IPs edit in a way that is abusive or to give the false impression of consensus, or is it plausible as Mallimak says that sometimes his computer logs out without him noticing. Of more concern are the two logged in accounts that are also likely Mallimak socks. Thatcher131 (talk) 16:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The IP accounts themself seem to be used for nonsense switching of nationality - there is the potential of avoiding 3RR with them, but I don't think it's been the case. On the other hand Mallimak, Gruelliebelkie (talk · contribs) and Orkadian (talk · contribs) have all taken part in the current Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Orkney MfD. Although to be honest it is possible they are three different people, in the same area / telephone exchange who all use BT for a broadband connection... Some of the comments in the MfD discussion are very similar. Thanks/wangi 16:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one continually getting logged out. It's not only plausible, it's a damn nuisance. I get logged out during any good-sized edit, and am saving more often because of it - clogging the edit history with nonsense versions. I'd dated it from approx Chris73's total Tiscali block a few weeks ago, but it it's affecting BT users as well, maybe I'm wrong... JackyR | Talk 16:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

For long edits I work in a personal sandbox, saving as often as I need, then copy to the article when its done. Thatcher131 (talk) 17:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Will User:Mais oui!'s harrassment never stop? More sock puppet allegations: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion#Portal:Orkney, and deletion of an entry on the Wikipedia:Orcadian Wikipedians' notice board, which he labelled as "bogus" - obviously, on reading it, it was not his POV. Can nobody rid us of this bogus Wikipedian? Mallimak 23:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I have found myself in dispute with User:Travb concerning the article Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America. I had initiated an AfD for this article and result was keep by no consensus. Since the AfD I have tried to clean up the article a bit and perhaps I am not always diplomatic in this endeavour or maybe I shouldn't have after the AfD. However, my edits are in good faith. Travb B has, however, even during the AfD, hounded me with baseless accusations and implied I behave like a vandal. He streeses I should not be deleting sections that I believe are not appropriate because I don't add anything. This is contrary to policy, I should not be required to add to an article in order to delete inappropraite sections. Also, by looking at his edits here, here, here and here (note edit summary I see a pattern of accusing me of vandalism and not acting in good faith because I "lost" the AfD. As someone who has always had the best of WP in mind I resent these accusations which almost make me want to quit the project over it. See also the talk sections on the article here, here and here and finally here where there is apparently a tabulation of words I added and deleted.

I would highly appreciate an outside admin looking into this.

I apologize for the length of this post. Thank you, Kalsermar 01:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I have also been accused of vandalism for deleting original and poorly researched material from the article. The article suffers from lots of POV-advocacy, and needs to be pared frequently to keep it within Wikipedia policy. I recommend that the article be kept in a protected mode until people can educate themselves about WP:RS, WP:OR and WP:Verify. Morton devonshire 17:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Kalsermar has deleted 1,857 words, and added 3 words to this article, please see my temporary page User:Travb/Deletions. This page lists every single edit of User:Kalsermar since he began posting to this page. He has deleted several very well referenced sections, see User:Travb/Deletions. As I stated on User:Kalsermar page, stating wikipedia policy: about vandalism: Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Wikipedia. For example, adding a personal opinion once is not vandalism — it's just not helpful, and should be removed or restated. User:Kalsermar, who lost the AfD, now is attempting to delete the entire article, section by section. A ratio of 3:1,857 words deleted, especially just days after User:Kalsermar lost an AfD, makes me question his alleged "good faith" efforts. I have removed my accusation of stating that User:Kalsermar are bording on vandalism. I have requested that this page be protected.[8] I have attempted to change the name of the article to a less controversial one, and have actively attempted to define terrorism on the talk page to stop revert wars. Travb (talk) 02:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for strengthening my case Travb. Since when is it appropriate to keep tabs on how many words an editor adds or deletes? Seems like stalking to me. And again, how does one loose an AfD?--Kalsermar 02:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. "I expect the implication of [stalking] on my part to be removed from this message forthwith or I will take this further." (your words) I am simply showing the reason why I am requesting this page to be protected. You did not mention that I apologized in the AfD for stating that you are not assuming good faith, said I was wrong, and struck the words out.[9] Travb (talk) 02:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It isn't clear what admin action is needed. This sounds more like something that should go to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Politics or perhaps Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Jkelly 02:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not overly familiar with dispute resolution protocols and where to go with that or how to initiate it. The help I was seeking is in how to deal with the accusations against me. My request has not to do with content dispute.--Kalsermar 02:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion Jkelly. I will post something on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Politics I have considered a third party neutral mediator, I will request one now. Can you protect the page Jkelly? Travb (talk) 02:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

If everyone would get away from the keyboard for a while much of this would work out. It's not the end of the world if the "wrong version" is up for a day or two. Tom Harrison ^Talk 02:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, it is not the content dispute I seek to resolve rather the accusations against me wich on my talk page are now being deleted by Travb. Either way, I won't be back till tomorrow afternoon anyways so I'll see what happens in the meantime.--Kalsermar 02:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

> I apologize for accusing you of your edits of "bordering on vandalism". I deleted those words,[10] and stated I did so here.

> What are you implying here? : accusations against me wich on my talk page are now being deleted by Travb As mentioned, I also apologized about 10 days ago for accusing you of not having "good faith". I was wrong. I am sorry. I would appreciate you striking out that I am "stalking" you, and apologize to me.

> The three edits which User:Kalsermar siteshere, here, here are all posted on User:Kalsermar wikipage, and the information which has offended User:Kalsermar has been removed.

> The other edit did not accuse User:Kalsermar of anything[11], and in this edit I accidently deleted a large section which User:Kalsermar has deleted himself. In trying to restore User:Kalsermar deletions, I made a mistake, which was quickly changed by another user.

> I find it ironic that User:Kalsermar is pointing out my accidental deletion "note edit summary" when he has deleted a ratio of 3:1,857 words, and started the AfD without ever contributing a single word to the article. My accidental mistake in no way lessens User:Kalsermar guilt or innocent, they are mutually exclusive actions, under Tu quoque logic. If this "is not the content dispute" as User:Kalsermar states, why would he bring up my accidental deletions stating: "note edit summary"? User:Kalsermar can't have it both ways: it is either a content dispute or it is not.

> User:Kalsermar wants this not to be a content dispute because what led me to say those things, is because the "content dispute" involves User:Kalsermar's behavior, with a ratio of 3:1,857 word deletions, paints him in a bad light. This argument is about a content dispute, and began because of a content dispute. I don't understand how User:Kalsermar is able to seperate the two, especially when he himself mentions my accidental deletion: "note edit summary".

> The talk page links here, here and here that User:Kalsermar links to are statments I have stated here, to my knowledge I do not accuse User:Kalsermar of anything anywhere else, if I have, I will remove those comments, and apologize.

> I need to apologize one more time though, I was wrong, User:Kalsermar has contributed 3 words to this article, not zero. I will change this right now. Sorry User:Kalsermar, my mistake. (talk) 02:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I will state this once more, I am not required to add anything to an article in order to be justified in removing sections I believe are not supposed to be in the article for whatever reason. If I delete a million words without adding a single one I am still contributing to the article. Can you even understand that. I have explained my reasoning for the deletion of the sections involved and they have been reverted without any substantial refuting of my arguments. I have not, in doing so, accused you of vandalism or destructive behaviour. You on the other hand continually do so against anyone who does not conform to your POV. I struck out the stalking comment and I apologize for assuming bad faith in your behavioural pattern. I will not, however, let accusations of vandalism or destructive behaviour on my part stand and I again request an admin's help in this matter.--Kalsermar 18:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

>User:Kalsermar wrote: I will state this once more, I am not required to add anything to an article in order to be justified in removing sections I believe are not supposed to be in the article for whatever reason. If I delete a million words without adding a single one I am still contributing to the article. Can you even understand that. I have explained my reasoning for the deletion of the sections involved and they have been reverted without any substantial refuting of my arguments Wait, didn't you just say yesterday, "Again, it is not the content dispute I seek to resolve rather the accusations against me wich on my talk page are now being deleted by Travb." I thought this had nothing to do with the content dispute?

>I will state this once more, I am not required to defend referenced material in the article in order to be justified in keeping the sections I believe are supposed to be in the article, when you support no referenced material on why this should be deleted and contribute nothing to the article. If I add a million referenced words which met WP:V and the other rules, and you come along and delete all of them, this is not contibuting to the article. I have explained my reasoning for the sections to remain and they have still been deleted without any substantial refuting of my arguments. I have not, in doing so, accused you of wikistalking. You on the other hand continually do so against anyone who does not conform to your POV. I struck out the vandalism comment and I apologize for assuming bad faith in your behavioural pattern. I will not, however, let accusations of stalking on my part stand and I again request an admin's help in this matter.

>It goes both ways User:Kalsermar it is obvious your 3 words and your 1,857 words deleted is not any signifigant contribution. If you can't see this, then we will have to let others decide this in arbitration. Since you are too stubborn to respect the decision of the AfD, which was no consensus, which by default means keep, and you continue to delete large sections, I will be forced to start a RfC, followed by arbitration. The entire two months this is going on, the article will be protected. All of those words you want to delete will stay on wikipedia. Then, the arbitors will punish any large deletion of referenced material by booting you, for one day up to a month. So: you have a choice. Stop deleting content that does not match you POV, try to reach a consensus on the talk page, or the page remains protected for months, and then you get booted when you start deleting large portions of referenced, verifiable material. I already know the conclusion to this, I have seen the same behavior a million times before. I wish you would surprise me but there appears to be no comprimising with you. Travb (talk) 00:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Again my dear Travb, you are strengthening my case. Just look at your diatribes, and o, of course you know how it will end. I suggest strongly you shut up addressing me before I will say something nasty.--Kalsermar 00:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• My tentative investigation of this matter (as a neutral third-party at the suggestion of Kalsermar) suggests that -- as one might expect -- some of the content-removal by Kalsermar was clearly justified, and some was questionable. The correct course here is for neither editor to alter the article at this point without seeking talk-page consensus, a measure enforced for the moment by protection. It is important to note that, as Kalsermar says, content-removal is oftentimes a positive contribution to an article, deleting bias and increasing focus. The ratio of "words deleted vs. words added" is irrelevant: the merits of the edits are the only question that matters. Xoloz 01:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

This user has altered User:Robdurbar's 3RR report edit and reverted to his altered version now five times.

• rv1
• rv2
• rv3
• rv4
• rv5

I warned this editor that he was nearing violation of WP:3RR but he continued to revert (and subsequently removed my warning).

Another pair of eyes would be useful here towards preventative ends.

Thanks. (→Netscott) 03:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The "altering" is simply removing the tag, as I do not believe the incident was correctly tagged. The 3RR was not correctly dealt with as anyone can see from actually looking at the reverts in question. There are 5 reverts in a 24 hour period! How can that not be a violation? There is no rule that a random admin's decision is binding, and anyway I will just relist if it is deleted. Deuterium 03:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The 3RR states that one can make no more than three reversions on the same article in a 24 hour period, so your 5 reversions clearly constitutes a violation.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that Deuterium (talk · contribs) was not aware of the type of vandalism referred to as, "Changing people's comments" when he altered User:Robdurbar's original comment. (→Netscott) 03:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't alter his comment, you're lying. I changed the tag of the incident because it was incorrectly tagged. Deuterium 03:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It was not incorrectly tagged since you did indeed violate the 3RR, so it was inappropriate for you to remove it.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk

Yes User:Deuterium is way over the 3RR limit. Now he's removing my own commentary. Could someone please wield the cluebat with this editor? Thanks. (→Netscott) 06:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This user, even in other contexts, knee-jerk blanket-reverts, rolling back spelling and grammar fixes. Nysin 07:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

N and D are both being mind-bogglingly silly about this. I'm blocking both for 12h for edit-warring on the 3RR page. Don't do it William M. Connolley 07:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

That has to be the stupidest place to get into a revert war. (Like using a sockpuppet to complain on a checkuser page) :-/ Thatcher131 (talk) 13:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes it was a bit silly. User:Deuterium kept reverting a report marked as "No block" to read as though the report hadn't been reviewed (obviously in hopes that an inexperienced adminstrator would falsely block me.) My edits (they were not reversion) were to prevent that from occurring. Well today Deuterium (talk · contribs) is back to his old tricks of trying to get me blocked under false pretenses by again filing the same report. I honestly wish someone would take some action here... this has gone much beyond ridiculousness with this editor. (→Netscott) 23:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this is just nuts. There's now been two admins who've seen User:Robdurbar's (Result: No block) tag and reverted it: User:William M. Connolley, and User:PinchasC but Deuterium still reverts it. Seriously this person needs to be blocked for Disruption a la WP:POINT. (→Netscott) 00:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm having trouble understanding this. All I see from the diffs is what Netscott claims, that Deuterium is changing the admin decisions on WP/3RR because he, who filed the reports, thinks the decisions ought to have gone his way. It makes me blink in disbelief... especially when William MC states that both users are being "silly", and blocks them both. How is Netscott silly for reverting this absurd vandalism, or isn't it absurd vandalism, have I totally missed some vital point? I do have faith in William MC's experience and judgement, I'm more than willing to be convinced, but, what is it I'm not seeing? Please somebody explain? Bishonen | talk 00:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC).

Net, I have asked Deuterium to drop the matter. If he continues I will block him. I suggest you drop the matter as well. JoshuaZ 00:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding me?... this is an ongoing pattern from yesterday. This user has been making concerted efforts towards admin shopping. And now is displaying this report on his user page. I got blocked by User:William M. Connolley for reverting his 3RR vandalism of changing commentary... and now he's trying to get me blocked again. This guy seriously needs to be cooling off. (→Netscott) (→Netscott) 00:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If he continues being disruptive, I will block him. He understands that. For now, I'd prefer if you both went back to editing articles. JoshuaZ 00:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

This is rather indicative of where this is going, " Alright, I'll remove the listing but I'm not letting this go. Deuterium 00:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)" (→Netscott) 00:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Update: well, I hope somebody answers my concerns above eventually, but until then, I do consider that only one person was being disruptive and it wasn't Netscott. I would wield the cluebat, but since Joshua has an agreement (yes?) with Deuterium to block iff he makes any more of those edits on WP/3RR, and since I seem alone in finding them outrageous, I'll leave well enough alone for now. Bishonen | talk 00:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC).

You weren't alone in finding them outrageous - see his talk page, eg [12] and also the 3RR page - eg comment by PinchasC - I would support a block of Deuterium for a violation of WP:POINT for relisting this--Arktos ^talk 00:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Given the edit summary in this diff I think it'd be pretty safe to say that User:William M. Connolley'd support this block for POINT violation as well. (→Netscott) 01:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

InShaneee has blocked him for 48 hours for trolling and WP:POINT. Bishonen | talk 02:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC).

User:Deuterium again

This User's User page is a personal attack and should have the attacking information removed. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed it. This should probably be made a subthread of the above discussion of this user, though. --InShaneee 02:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a further POINT violation by this user. (→Netscott) 02:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice, now he's edit warring with User:InShaneee over his user page. (→Netscott) 02:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm hope I am not out of place adding my two cents here as I am not an admin and have nowhere near the reputation many of the people who contribute to this page do but I think that a block for being so blatantly disruptive would not be out of place here as Deuterium has repeatedly assumed bad faith on his comments and by the fact that he has repeatedly disruptived the 3RR noticeboard among other pages with his comments and despite being first suggested and then told that it would be better for everyone if he just dropped it he has continued to be disruptive. Please feel free to remove this if I am out of line here but that's just my $.02 Cat-five - talk 02:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

He's been blocked, "with an expiry time of 48 hours (trolling, POINT violations)" by User:InShaneee but is requesting an {{unblock}}. Obviously, I would advise against unblocking. (→Netscott) 02:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

These are some of the user's recent edit summaries which are extremely hostile:

• fluffery elimination; main Allende bio doesn't contain this "gushing", so there's no reason to entertain it here [13]
• Please stop the *BS*, Vints. This bloated, irrelevent, even redundant, paragraph concercing cessation of foreign aid DOES NOT BELONG in a "intervention" section. [14]
• And furthermore, Allende's "Marxist expirement" was a complete success -- it proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Marxism was a dismal economic failure on every conceivable level. [15]
• If you're going to brag about your spiffy new source in Talk, why don't you actually use it in the ARTICLE, Vints? This is so tedious.. [16]
• Hey, look over there.... [17]

Also, take a look at Talk:Chile under Allende which has been turned into a soapbox. The user has already been blocked several times for these kinds of actions.--Jersey Devil 03:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The following is a recent comment made by the above user to User:Vints:

Perhaps Vints should go over to the Nazism page and edit in a couple remarks reminding everyone, obsessively, that the Nazis were freely elected. Because, after all, that's soooo relevent and justifies dictatorship. Er, right.--Mike18xx 05:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC) [18]

The hell they do. Go breathlessly announce it on the Nazism page, Vints, and see how far the fluffing gets. [19]--Jersey Devil 03:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This user appears to have been blocked multiple times before with little effect. A long block may be appropriate and would have my support. ++Lar: t/c 04:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Now the user is making false accusations of vandalism:

rv errors, loaded-insinuation phrases and straight-up rubbish for reasons cited previously. This is just vandalism now. [20]--Jersey Devil 02:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Light current has already had a block review declined, but he's asking the two admins currently involved User:Lar and User:Drini to make sure they're acting on the correct info. I'm not on either side of this but just passing on the info. --Anchoress 05:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

As another independant observer, based on his explanation there does seem to be a possibility that he was re-blocked on a misunderstanding. I would urge an admin to take a fresh look at this, perhaps User:Drini could confirm whether s/he intended to unblock as User:Light current suggests. Rockpocket 05:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the crux of Drini's block was a belief that Light current made an attack page that an EnthusiastFRANCE sock made. While Light current's behaviour has been less than spectacular on his talk page (particularly with respect to his discourse with Pschemp) I don't think it warrants a month's block. -- Samir धर्म 05:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, i concur. I think (hope) Light current will see the, uh, light and realise that the way forward is an apology to Pschemp, a better understanding of WP:CIVIL and then he can get back to his excellent work on engineering related articles. Thanks for your attention, Samir. Rockpocket 07:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I tecnincally am the last admin to block... I happened to see the block by Drini, and it looked like (due to an error calculating timespans on my part) like Drini was trying to extend. So I unblocked and reblocked. It turns out I goofed, it was a new block not an extension so my action was unneeded. Allegations have been made that Drini lifted or meant to lift, which I think are incorrect. I've left a note on Drini's talk page stating that I am fine with whatever Drini does, leave it, reduce, lift... I gotta say that I see a LOT of nastiness and intransigence in this user's behaviour though. At a time when a month long block of Giano is being seriously mooted for one funny suggestion to a known troublemaker who really needs a community banning, I don't see a month in this case as disproportionate... but I'm not at all wedded to this block, and, particularly, defer to Drini. ++Lar: t/c 12:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Short version: Drini made the original block. Please speak with him about it. pschemp | talk 17:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

He's "apologised" 4 times now (under his definition) but hasn't yet actually admitted fault. We can't force people to apologise but my metric for how closely to watch a user includes whether they apologised sincerely or not, a sincere apology tends to be a sign of reduced risk of further problems. I wish Drini would weigh in. ++Lar: t/c 10:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I still wish Drini would weigh in. But all in all this user is now showing more understanding (see this) so I've taken it upon myself to reduce the block to 3 hours from now, menaing that the user will have been blocked for about 3 days. That now feels right to me. Drini or anyone else is welcome to comment on my actions. ++Lar: t/c 21:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I did try to unblock you soon after, then the block dialog said "the blockid is not vlaid, probablky user is already unblocked". I did lift an autoblock (you may check), so I assumed it was all clear, as I dont' follow every AN thread, I rather got ocnfused about waht was going on 4444

Tywright (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) continues to censor the Charlie Crist article and add POV to Tom Gallagher article. This appears to be a vandalism-only account and it should be blocked as such. --CFIF (talk to me) 10:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

User made some POV edits, and one edit I'd classify as vandalism, but hasn't edited at all since the 15th, and has been warned twice (by Bastique and by you) only since then (on the 16th and 17th). Seems to be more of a POV pusher than an outright vandal. I feel a warning should suffice for now. Other opinions?--Firsfron of Ronchester 11:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like someone with a stake in the election that these two politicians are involved in, rather than an ordinary vandal. We may need to act to block indefinitely if there are further edits to those pages, and further warnings don't work quickly. Suggest some eyes are kept on the relevant pages (i.e. the two politicians and the contributions of Tywright). Metamagician3000 12:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Watching appropriate pages.--Firsfron of Ronchester 06:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Proudzionist2347 is a sock puppet of Zonerocks as established by CheckUser and the evidence provided therein (similar article edits, self-congratulatory, stacking a move poll, and signing in the wrong place). It would seem there are other concerns about Zonerocks, but at the least the puppet should be blocked, correct (even though the poll was over weeks ago)? I'm loathe to use {{sockpuppetcheckuser}} as it says the user has been blocked already, which obviously I can't do. -- nae'blis 15:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked the Proudzionist2347 account indefinitely. Jkelly 17:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Jkelly. I noticed that he removed talk page comments twice about sockpuppetry, but since he's left it alone on his userpage, I'm not too worried about it. -- nae'blis 14:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I find myself in a slow motion edit war.

Whilst reading Nobby Nobbs, I came upon a link to Kleptomania. I was vaguly disturbed to find an article that smelled funny, rambling on about Monomania; I googled, found that Kleptomania was listed in the DSM, and checked the history.

And found that the current version was the work of one editor, User:Tobias Müller, who wrote the only modern paper cited as a source.

I reverted; and have since had to revert again.

And I'm wondering:

What should I do now?

^Thanks, _{Luc "Somethingorother" French} 20:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I noticed you haven't tried communicating with Tobias. No wonder why you two are in an edit war, both the article's talk page and his user talk page are empty. Start a dialogue with him and try resolve your differences civilly. There's no real point raising a complaint here unless he continues to ignore you. PS: You're not allowed t blank your own User Talk page, you're only allowed to archive old messages. --  Netsnipe  ^(Talk)  20:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm really hoping to be able to hand this situation off to somebody (preferably an admin, thus my posting here) who can deal with a POV warrior and/or a crank (which is what Tobias Müller may very well turn out to be, given his choice of sources), as I suspect I wouldn't be very good at handling this sort of situation. Anybody care to volunteer? ^Thanks, _{Luc "Somethingorother" French} 21:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You could also try stealing the article :) Cat-five - talk 00:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• RoyalFrush (talk · contribs) is JohnnyCanuck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) attempting to evade his indef block. A block would be appreciated. Thank. -- pm_shef 23:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• That is a suspicious user. However, it is not as clearcut as most of his other sockpuppets. Let this one go until it starts playing the games that the others do. -- JamesTeterenko 02:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The Prophecy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a series of vandalistic redirects. (The last being my talk page and user page.) I temporarily blocked the user, though it should probably be a permanent block for a vandalism only account. I'd appreciate some help with reverting the mess. Thanks. — ERcheck (talk) 00:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• I'm new to this and not sure where to start. I don't want to delete pertinent histories. — ERcheck (talk) 00:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I tried moving the Aginar page back, but it failed because he created a page with the same title as the one it had moved from. I think what needs to happen is that a bunch of articles need to be deleted (the redirects and so on) so that the pages can be moved back to their original locations for starters. I'll try reverting the edits he made to any content, that should be easy--BigCow 00:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I got it. He started with moving Aginar to Large Mammals and then kept moving it to a series of expletive/nonsense titles. I fixed the Aginar and my user pages, I think all the rest can be deleted. Just need to take care. — ERcheck (talk) 00:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

All deleted; I think it's fixed now. Thanks for posting the notice. Antandrus (talk) 00:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks to you Antandrus. — ERcheck (talk) 00:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Two anon editors 128.97.143.170 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 71.135.249.20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) (probably the same person) have been making unencyclopedic rewrites to MEChA over the last few days (see here and here for two examples). 71.135.249.20 also blanked sections of the talk page and made personal attacks. [21] [22][23] I tried to show good faith and have left messages on the talk pages of both the IP's regarding their actions, but none of my attempts have been responded to. I keep urging this user to discuss their edits on the talk page, but they have yet to do so in any meaningful way. There is also a small bit on this topic at Meeples' talk page. If some more people can keep an eye on these pages and try and talk to this person, that would be great. If the actions continue, I think a block may be in order. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 01:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, TheKaplan has found the source of these edits. [24] So in addition to being unencyclopedic, it's also a possible copywrite violation. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 01:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll semi-protect the page. -Will Beback 06:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 07:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Over the last few days there has been some contestation between myself and several users regarding the use of a logo from the Legend of Zelda series of games. In particular the image that is at the middle of this is Image:Triforce.svg. A very close likeness of this image is featured prominently at http://www.zelda.com/universe/, and is in fact the avatar Nintendo uses for that website. My stance is that Image:Triforce.svg is a copyrighted work, and I've changed the tagging it from {{pd-self}} to {{logo}} (though perhaps {{game-icon}} is more appropriate). The counter response to this is that the image is a Sierpinski triangle and is inherently uncopyrightable as a result, plus being user created. My counter-response has been that the image being a mathematical construct does not change the fact that it is a copyrighted work. The logo for Mitsubishi is also a mathematical construct (simply parallelograms arranged around a focal point). A quick summary of these respective positions may be found at Wikipedia_talk:Copyright_problems#Image:Triforce.svg.

As of now, the point remains in dispute. Recently, a used replaced the image with a yellow triangle, which from my chair is perfectly acceptable (see [25]). A day later, this was replaced by using the same triangle image three times, creating essentially the same image as Image:Triforce.svg (see [26]). I reverted this change since it did create an essentially identical image [27]. Shortly thereafter, the original Image:Triforce.svg was placed back on the template [28]. I've reverted this change as well, returning to the single triangle version [29].

This dispute has gone on for four days now, and I've reverted/replaced five times over those days vs. three other users who have been reverting me. The dispute has also involved {{Zeldaproj}} and {{Zelda-stub}} though with less reversion in their histories. User:BigNate37 who put in place the single triangle (a good move I thought) also made a good suggestion my talk page to "call in a second opinion" [30]. Since Wikipedia_talk:Copyright_problems didn't produce any dialogue, I'm bringing it here.

For the record, I think it's blatantly apparent this is a copyrighted image both by nature of the presence of it on Nintendo's website and by the fact that several users are quite interested in having some version of it on the various templates. If the image were not tightly related to Zelda, there would not be such interest. The image is tightly related because Nintendo markets it as such. They have a vested interest in protecting the use of such logos. The single yellow triangle is an acceptable, free-use alternative.

Lastly, I think the core of the dispute and its value is questionable; the argument is over using a copyrighted image (potentially or otherwise) on templates that do not contribute content to the main article namespace. The stub marker for example is not compromised by the lack of the logo; it would be served just as well by a single triangle. I do not see the value in potentially violating Nintendo's copyright in order to support a (subjectively) prettier version of three templates. I would much rather see the people who think this image is usable contact Nintendo regarding its specific stance regarding this image; this is the right path to take, not presume it isn't copyrighted.

If consensus is otherwise to my stance, I'll quite happily concede the point. --Durin 01:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

IP isn't my daily grind, but -- FWIW -- Nintendo has probably trademarked the triangle as a mark of the Zelda game. The company couldn't copyright a construct discovered in 1915, and Mitsubishi hasn't copyrighted theirs either. As a trademark, use of the symbol is permitted to any party not competing with Nintendo. Trademarking does not remove a mark from the public domain, and only restricts its use within the limited industry or trade to the party trademarking. In short, the triangle is usable, unless we start "Wikipedia:The Video Game". :) Xoloz 01:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I seem to recall a story that that arangement of trangles, was printed on various goods in Japan before the existance of the video game. This needs to be looked into. If it is true, the symbol may be inelligible for copyright. (Of course, without a reference, this is only a theory!) Though, as stated, its relation and use in video games may be trademarked by the Nintendo company. --Kevin_b_er 02:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

That is also pretty much the logo of the American Academy of Actuaries, Image:2006AAALOGO.jpg -- Avi 04:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I would say copyright fears have been allayed. Gateman1997 05:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I took a look at Nintendo's trademarks on the USPTO site. They have 287 active registered trademarks, including the word "Triforce" for a huge range of uses. They've trademarked several pictures of Mario, several variants of their "circle within a circle" logo; their cube of the letter N, and the outline of each of their controllers. They've trademarked a long list of Pokemon names, plus "Gotta catch em all!". But they don't seem to have trademarked that triangle symbol. --John Nagle 06:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks everybody for your hard work! Much appreciated. Based on this discussion, I've retagged the image as {{pd-ineligible}} and put it back [31][32][33] on the templates in question. --Durin 12:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please explain fair use to User:Mineralè? User:Zoe|(talk) 02:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

His personal attacks ([34] have gone over the edge, and I will not deal with him any more. All of this because I listed his image as a copyvio. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you linnk the right diff there? - brenneman ^{L} 02:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't think "please note some of us are actually trying to build a wikipedia, not just play whack a vandal MMPORG." is an attack? User:Zoe|(talk) 03:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I do, but that was the diff before and I wanted to make sure which one you were talking about rather than guessing. He's clearly incivil and wrong about the image to boot. - brenneman ^{L} 03:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Zoe is absolutely correct here. Non-iconic images from press agencies are not candidates for fair use. (→Netscott) 03:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

As its silly and a legal liability to have this copyright violation sitting around, and since Minerale keeps taking the non fair use tags off, I have deleted this image. Take it to DRV if anyone disagrees. pschemp | talk 03:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Pschemp: I only removed the tag once, the second time it was a bot generated tag becuase it was briefly orphaned. Like it or not His image will be plastered around the media for the next year or so as the trial, conviction, sentencing and appeals go through, his image will be on that article. I see many people here do not like APF, and I understand that, here's a Reuters photo: [35]

• http://www.cnn.com his photo is on front page
• http://www.msnbc.msn.com Front page
• http://www.ajc.com front page

The image of Karr will serve as a reminder of the grave mistakes the media made in accusing the Ramsey family. I urge you to upload and use the Reuters photo, looks like y'all are not going to agree with me on this for now, consider it for next week. —Mineralè 2006-08-18 03:34Z

You are totally missing the fact that is is illegal to use images from AFP. There is no attempt at censorship here, just a protection of Wikipedia's legal liability. pschemp | talk 03:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If an image qualifies under fair use, it does not matter who 'sells it'. Even if IF AFP were to specifically deny wikipedia the right. See: [36] —Mineralè 2006-08-18 03:54Z

Mineralè, please see Wikipedia:Fair_use#Counterexamples #5 and know that guideline (and the policy below) is what Wikipedia operates under. (→Netscott) 03:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

That's correct, grandparent entry said it's illegall to use no matter what, point five carves out an exception. —Mineralè 2006-08-18 04:09Z

Indeed, an exception to which the photo you uploaded did not fall under. The photo itself was not newsworthy merely the individual in the photo. I would recommend that you use your time in an effort to source an image that will qualify for fair usage or better yet a "free" image. (→Netscott) 04:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

You've misunderstood the meaning of "iconic". If the photo became so well known that it merited an article of its own, then reproduction of this photo would be fair use in the article about the photo itself. It will virtually never be fair use in an article about the subject of the photo. Snottygobble 04:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, there's nothing to agree to. The photos of agencies like Reuters, AFP etc. will never qualify for fair usage unless the image in question is "iconic". (→Netscott) 03:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

209.107.99.199 (talk · contribs · count) has been making legal threats regarding edits made to Myron Wolf Child. The IP has been blocked for a 6 month period, but claims that Myron Wolf Child's nation-wide network and Legal Defense Team will continue correcting the information until legal matters have been settled. Just wanted to mention this here before it escalated into something nasty. -- Natalya 03:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the legal threats; if it continues, then I would protect the page. Iolakana•T 15:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

User has been banned in the past for uploading unsources images, but is doing it again. He also created Sana (actress), consisting only of an image, and removed my PROD tag without explanation. -Elmer Clark 08:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked him for a month (yes I know, a bit on the short side) and will delete his images and the non-article. Kusma (討論) 08:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• PRODs can be contested for any reason (or the lack of it). I've speedied it as {{empty}}, which you should have tagged it with. - Mailer Diablo 08:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, right you are, sorry. And I did not restore the PROD he contested, I just asked him to explain why he did so. -Elmer Clark 08:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Indefblock, please, impostor. - CrazyRussian talk/email 10:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. Kimchi.sg 10:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

"Iron" InShaneeee? This guy's my new (indef blocked imposter) hero! --InShaneee 23:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

is being overrun by obvious and ridiculous socks that have totally stolen the show. Would anyone please restore order? - CrazyRussian talk/email 10:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't see a huge overrun of socks. Every sock and point violation looks like they've been caught and noted as such for the bureaucrat to ignore. While I supposed we could sprotect, I'm not sure we've ever sprotected a RFA :). I'll just try to keep it on my watchlist for the remaining two days or so that its running. Syrthiss 11:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like it was sprotected anyhow. Syrthiss 12:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

It's happened before: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Eluchil404. -- nae'blis 12:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

There is an edit war occuring over a suspected sock template placed on that page. Anyone want to resolve? (Please note: first edit was to Consumed Crustracean's RfA). Viridae^Talk 12:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've full protected that userpage with the sock notice intact, tho the user is requesting changes to it with {{editprotected}} on their talk. I'm not inclined to edit it, but I won't stand in the way if another admin wishes to remove the protection. I'm also not going to stand in the way if another admin were to indefblock the user as a sleepersock. Syrthiss 12:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. --InShaneee 23:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a nasty edit war at Srebrenica massacre. I've been a bit lax, hoping that with a bit of patience, advice and warnings it would resolve itself, but I'm now think some blocks are required to give some credibility to our policies. I'm probably too much involved myself to mete out blocks, so I'd like to request short blocks to what I see as the main problem users:

• Osli73 (talk · contribs) for constant edit warring (see the history). He violated the 3RR with reverts on 18 Aug 05:18, 17 Aug 16:34, 17 Aug 16:01, 17 Aug 06:58; look for instance at the section titled "(Dispute regarding) Serb casualties around Srebrenica", starting around line 435, to see that these are reverts. He was warned by User:Heah (diff), I also told him to stop (diff), but Osli replied that he will continue edit warring diff), and indeed he did. (I realize that there is a page for 3RR violations, but I'd like to have everything together.)
• Bosniak (talk · contribs) for personal attacks and sterile edit warring. Bosniak said that Osli "lack basic tenets of common sense, general knowledge, and intelligence." (diff). Bosniak was blocked for personal attacks before (log). Furthermore, he blindly reverts the article every day, without any regard of what has changed, and thus wipes out any improvements. For example, the reverts on 18 Aug 00:45, 17 Aug 01:11, 16 Aug 05:31, 15 Aug 05:25 and 14 Aug 04:02 all reintroduce spelling mistakes. He was told not to do this by Live Forever (diff) and me (same diff as my warning to Osli). This makes it very hard to find a compromise version.

Of course, I'd also appreciate help from anybody with experience in handling disputes. Specifically, I'm wondering about temporarily protecting the page. My only concern is that one of the parties is asking for page protection (diff, diff) — guess they've never heard about m:The Wrong Version — and I don't want them to think that their edit warring got them what they wanted. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • This response is from Bosniak (talk · contribs) ***

I agree that edit wars should stop, but you need to realize that [Osli73] is primary to blame for edit wars, blind reverts, and full blown vandalism of Srebrenica Massacre article. I would be more than glad to stop reverting the article to a more civilized versions, but please bear in mind that Osli73 (talk · contribs) needs to stop first, because he is leading a war with at least 10 other editors who refuse to accept his vandalism. In other words, [Osli73] is vandalizing article, he deletes facts such as the fact that 8,106 Bosniaks died in the massacre (well documented, with names, JMBR numbers, names of parents, etc). In my opinion, and in the opinion of at least 10 other editors, Osli73 needs to be banned from ever editing Srebrenica massacre article. Bosniak 00:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Over at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Árpád, Latinitas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has filed a checkuser request against Árpád (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for "Fascist edits." Both accounts are only a week old, and they edit Hungarian/Romanian topics. I'm pretty sure something else is going on here but I can't quite put my finger on it. Any help? Thatcher131 (talk) 14:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

When I see Latinitas' own edits on Magyarization [37], I start to wonder whether it is not a sock of a banned editor... -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 14:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

It was a sock of permabanned User:Bonaparte abakharev 23:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yay, so I was right in my mail, Alex? What do I win? :P -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 23:37, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi all, Special:Randompage landed me this morning on an article with a really bizarre section (that I removed) left by Acaryatid. I'm starting to look at his edit history, and see some things that look anomalous. I'd appreciate some more eyes on their contribs to help determine if there's a problem or not. Thanks. --Improv 15:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I will go through from the beginning and see if there's anything problematic and, if so, remove it. The user doesn't seem to have top edit on anything, so I'll have to manually revert anything that's in violation of policy, if anything. UPDATE: I'm removing most of the politicalfriendster links, with a few exceptions where the spamminess is outweighed by usefulness. Captainktainer * Talk 16:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed pretty much everything I could find that hasn't already been removed, barring the rare occasion where this user's contributions have been helpful. Thanks for finding that. Captainktainer * Talk 17:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like several of his additions have been copyvios. · rodii · 16:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought I would dump this here as it is outside my comfort level. User Vgfarmer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) seems to have an agenda to post new words and synonyms (neologisms) into existing articles and one new article Pratdigger. What is notable is that the words may all come from http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=57262821. From there: "We are planting Verbal Seeds around the world to see what will grow. Please help us disseminate the seeds, water the shoots and then reap the harvest." I began by reverting the additions, but I think it needs more than that, but I don't know what. There is some still unreverted in British coinage: I began by adding a "citation needed"... Notinasnaid 16:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• Everything's been reverted no, and he's been warned. The behavior halted about six hours ago. --Durin 18:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Margana's edit-warring at Psephos has been going on for so long it is practically a geological process. There has been a brief respite during which he abstained out of fear of being blocked by me, but as soon as I undertook not to block him again (having become too involved) he returned to the article to edit war some more.

For months he has edit-warred and disrupted this article out of his insistence on including his personal POV version of an assertion that the subject of the article is politically biased, using Cuba as an example. With a resolution finally at hand, he has today suddenly decided to use Laos instead, taking us back three months to have the whole argument all over again. I am so frustrated and angry about this blatant trolling.

Can an uninvolved and relatively calm admin please review and do something before I blow my top? Snottygobble 23:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks nicely balanced now. What is the source of the argument? Would it be something for our political science folks or our Australians or....? Geogre 02:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Margana is blatantly trying to bait Adam Carr with his edits to this article, and in his incessant edit warring is driving just about every regular Australian editor up the wall. The only reason the article looks reasonable at the moment is because Margana hasn't done his round of reverts for today. I really think this is about time for a community ban - Margana has no useful edits, and wasting enormous amounts of good users' time on this. Rebecca 06:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You looked through all of my 664 edits and determined that all of them were useless? Quite a feat! I should explain to the gallery that Rebecca (who happens to live in the same city as Adam Carr) is the one who wrote that Psephos article, about Adam Carr's website, on Adam Carr's request, and with unverifiable information privately supplied by Adam Carr. She has since on numerous occasions not only reverted without explanation, but also abused rollback to do that. Snottygobble, another Australian with a long history of edit-warring in conjunction with Adam Carr and Rebecca, then violated both protection policy and (twice) blocking policy after he had been involved in the edit war, and just now pledged to stop this, after I engaged an advocate. Margana 21:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Snottygobble, I think you'd be prudent to keep out of it now. From a brief review, this looks like a user who is confrontational and "difficult" but good at Wikilawyering (though I have no idea who is correct about the underlying content dispute, and I don't want to know). It's better if some completely uninvolved admins watch the page and see what happens. Rebecca, have you tried any dispute resolution processes? You should know that it sometimes does more harm than good for admins to try to get involved and conciliate (the term I use for mediation backed by threats) disputes unless there is blatantly abusive conduct. Metamagician3000 08:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This editor has been a pain in the butt at Jimmy Wales in the past, insisting that wikitruth was a reliable source and that info on there should be included in the article. That was resolved by a strawpoll, when it became clear that he was alone in this. This editor games the system systematically, using exactly three reverts per day, even at one time selfreverting after noticing that he had done the fourth within 24 hours [38] and doing it immediatly after the 24 hour period was over [39]. I blocked him after that anyway for gaming the system [40], but it shows the gaming aspect of this user. As this user is active in a narrow range of articles, only a limited number of editors has encountered him, but the amount of edit warring and gaming is staggering. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 13:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a blatant lie that I insisted that "wikitruth was a reliable source" - I didn't use wikitruth as a source for facts, I quoted it, and of course every website is a reliable source as to what it itself says. As to those reverts, all it shows is that I scrupulously respect the 3RR. Somewhere on my talk page I have already explained the absurdity of the whole "gaming" concept (it's like a cop saying "the speed limit is 50 here - you're consistently driving 49, I'm fining you for gaming the system"). Also, a strawpoll, by its very nature, can not possibly "resolve" anything. If anything, a proper vote might resolve something, but then, WP:NOT a democracy. Arguments count, not dittos. I should also note that after KimvdLinde was involved in an edit war with me on Jimmy Wales, she started stalking me and opposing me wherever she could - she would never otherwise have been interested in Psephos, but seeing me there, she reverted against me. Margana 21:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Your analogy demonstrates to me that you do not understand 3RR, which is to encourage people to resolve their differences on talk pages and build consensus, rather than attempt to get/keep certain content on a page by reverting. Maybe if you discussed things more and tried to compromise/reason with other editors you would have fewer problems? JChap2007 21:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I know what the ideal is, but talking and consensus-building requires that both sides are willing to do that, and acting in good faith. I suggest you take a look at the relevant talk pages. I am the one who discussed more than anyone else. Now on the other hand, try to find the name Rebecca on Talk:Psephos... Margana 22:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

If you want to convince people to be sympathetic to you, directing them to that talk page is not a good idea. You are obviously engaged in a pattern of tendentious editing, trying to edit war against a broad consensus (which is not, I hasten to add, synonymous with unanimity). I doubt you will convince people that Cuba or Laos have free elections. You need to realize that you are not going to be able to "win" every "battle" on a wiki, accept it and move on. JChap2007 22:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Your comment about me not convincing people "that Cuba or Laos have free elections" shows that you do not remotely understand what this dispute is about, and are shooting from the hip based on what can only be a superficial skimming of the talk page. Nor is there a broad consensus, as I have explained repeatedly. Margana 23:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like further steps need to be taken for this user; this has been going on for so long that hopes of resolving it peacefully are slim-to-none. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 16:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hence a community ban. Rebecca 01:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I haven't formed a particularly favourable view of Margana from my limited investigation of the matter so far (see above), but IMHO it's way premature to be talking about a community ban. Again, aren't there dispute resolution processes that could be tried? Is there a problem with someone initiating an RfC in some appropriate form, if the problem seems all that bad? Metamagician3000 02:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• It sure looks like one against all and that one being quite recalcitrant. It also looks like there has been enough time passed that this go to mediation. If that fails (and it probably will), ArbCom. Because this user has been selectively warring or insisting, depending upon your point of view, it isn't really a "community" worn out, so I agree that a community ban isn't appropriate. Geogre 02:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't believe formal mediation is worth attempting at all; each and every attempt of outside intervention has failed.--cj | talk 11:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Margana is the victim of having many wikiEnemies because he is passionate about getting the truth out.

Taeguk Warrior (talk · contribs) refuses to stop removing warnings and similar notices from his page. He was recently blocked for a week due to this behavior, and resumed it immediately upon "release". I've blocked him for another week in order to give us time to discuss what should be done. I'm all in favor of blocking for at least a month, if not longer. Taeguk Warrior is constantly revert-warring on many different articles in addition to his own user talk page [41]. He has also gotten into rows over whether or not an image is tagged properly, and has removed dispute tags on several images: [42], [43], [44], [45], and there are others. So, what say ye? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone else want to put in a thought on this one? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a case for his block evasion down below--I didn't see this section until just now. Perhaps that should be moved here? —LactoseTI^T 19:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've done so. Your post from below has been moved directly below this one. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

User continuously skirts blocks with large block of IP's.

Here [[46]], he seems to imply that a comment was left by him here [[47]]. That IP (71.124.113.216) is from a hostname ending with ".chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net." Here again [[48]] he mentions he forgot to sign in and had the IP 71.124.122.59, another from the same block.

He has been blocked repeatedly for blanking his talk page, removing PUI tags/vandalism from pictures he uploaded, etc. (now on his second 1 week block). The longest blocks were the last two consecutive week long ones which he seems to have avoided by editing from his IP directly:

• 02:43, August 18, 2006 1 week
• 01:10, August 11, 2006 1 week

He seems to have skirted his first one week block using the ip 71.124.34.4 (from the "chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net" pool, contributions here [[49]], where he amassed first a 24 hour and then a 48 block. Started editing on August 12, 2006 from this IP, one day into his first 1 week block, diving right into the same Masutatsu Oyama article, removing PUI tags /from the images uploaded by Taeguk Warrior here [[50]], [[51]],[[52]],[[53]], [[54]], [[55]], etc. (there are many).

Here [[56]] he copied an unusually worded warning onto my talk page from Taeguk Warrior's user page here [[57]].

When this IP was blocked for 48 hours, only a short time after coming off a 24 hour block, a couple of edits from 74.64.70.159 contributions here [[58]] (outside of the pool) continued his reverts on Masutatsu Oyama.

After a day or so, edits started coming in from 71.124.36.224 contributions here [[59]], again in the "chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net" pool to the same Masutatsu Oyama article. They continued edits on a few articles frequented by Taeguk Warrior, including one created by him here [[60]]. Here [[61]], his edit summary refers to me specifically (saying that since he added a free picture it must make me angry (I had cleaned up the article significantly and tagged some unfree images he uploaded).

At this point his week long block expired and he promptly found himself under another 1 week block for doing the same thing (removing tags, blanking his user page--unknowingly I may have fanned the flames a bit, my vandal script noticed him making the same changes I had tagged as vandalism. He reverted my warnings as well as those from administrators/others.

Now that he's on his second week-long block, he has started editing from 72.69.105.138 contributions here [[62]], again in the chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net pool. Again, he is reverting/removing bits of content from Masutatsu Oyama, though it's relatively minor compared to what he was doing before.

At first I didn't notice they were all from the same pool, but not only do they have blatantly the same edit patterns. I put it together when I realized the only time these IP's show up is when the main account is blocked, and happened to see his post on the Masuyama talk page where he seemed to indicate that he was in the same pool. There are other edits in other articles, but the Masuyama article illustrates it particularly well since there are very few editors involved with it (and I wanted to keep this as brief as possible).

I thought he'd cool down a bit and make some valuable contributions (he has the capability--he added to several articles with some nice pictures). It seems, though, that he might not be cooling down at all--perhaps because he just avoids the block and keeps editing. It's unfortunate because he's a relatively new user and just seems to be escalating the bad edits vs. the good ones. I had originally thought to request semi-protection for the Masuyama page, though it seems kind of unnecessary since he does seem to blank/revert less when he's blocked. Of course, I'm discouraged when my edits are undone and he's uncivil--namecalling and the like, but I'll stick around. I'd just avoid the articles he's editing, but he seems now to want to "follow me around," putting my contribution link on his user page (originally under a list of stalkers, now by itself). Sometimes he's particularly viscious, tagging good faith efforts as "vandalism" to confuse the issue. If anyone has some suggestions, I'm all ears. —LactoseTI^T 06:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Created Checkuser request. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Users User:Ceula, User:LeonardLorch, User:Edytore, User:199.88.72.4, and User:199.88.67.33 appear to be sockpuppets, switching accounts to avoid being blocked for spamming while continuing to try to include promotional information both as links and as content. Additionally, some of them have been editing others' comments about this behaviour of theirs. Most of this has been happening in Dental_floss. 01:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

A request for checkuser was declined with the comment "obvious". Should this be moved to WP:SSP or is it fine here? 03:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I know that Wikipedia is meant to be a rightwing alternative to Britannica [63] but lifting an entire article (word for word) from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a bit too much, isn't it? Especially with this edit summary: "Iranian involvement in Lebanon (please explain in talk what is the problem. I took specila care to write it as NPOV as I can but I am willing to listen to any issue.)" [64] --Part of the thesis 01:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Confirmed by CopyScape. Deleted. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 02:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Loged on RfAr/Zeq#Log of blocks and bans; see also, my RfAr/Request for clarification. El_C 18:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, there's a rather large backlog over at CAT:CSD. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 03:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

50 pages seems pretty normal... I don't do images but there's just one page right? Seems less than usual. Am I missing something? --W.marsh 04:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

For CSD, a large backlog is ~250+. See the category tracker. Dragons flight 03:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was fairly large earlier. Of course, I wouldn't know exactly what a "large backlog" was. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 04:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Mr. Lefty was right to bring it up. A backlog of 50 can be a backlog of 100 in no time, given how much garbage shows up and how well our volunteers tag the worst of it and how too few admins are doing new pages patrol at any time to deal with the influx. We should always get warnings here when the backlog hits 50, IMO. Geogre 12:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Then like 90-99% of the threads on this board would be backlog warnings :-) --W.marsh 13:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Here User:Hagiographer changed my signature to that of another user User:Pura Paja. Can an admin please do something to discourage him? SqueakBox 03:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)